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Would you take clothes?
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Imaonwheels




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 22 2008, 1:24 pm
Motek wrote:
YESHASettler wrote:
Yeah, because there are no such thing as a schnorrer from BP, Monsey, lakewood, etc.


YESHA - do you know the history of the early religious yishuv in Eretz Yisrael, pre-State till the present and how it was supported?


And do you know it in depth and know why it was like that? Do you know the story in Yerushalayim shel Maalah of the boy who was given a tomato (a luxury) by a foreign tourist and when she left gave it to a beggar? Midas hachassiut for sure as that boy was much poorer than our poor today.

Certainly better to live on the chaluka of a tzibbur ready and willing to support their brethren living a life of kedusha in a poor country with no infrastructure and oppressive non jews, and still do your best to serve HaShem than taking hard earned Jewish money to by things while throwing perfectly good clothing away.

If you really knew the history of the old yishuv you would know that, esp among the Sefardim, there were many craftsman, no work and constant danger in traveling. But this I know is another piece of Aguda historical romanticizing. What, those tzaddikim work?
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BeershevaBubby




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 22 2008, 1:28 pm
Motek wrote:
So you're saying we shouldn't believe the tzedaka appeals in which they describe the terrible poverty in Eretz Yisrael, much of it on a level unheard of elsewhere?


Can you support this statement with statistical facts... that poverty levels in the Jewish communities of Kiryas Yoel, New Square, BP, Lakewood, etc are nowhere close to those in Bnei Brak, Mea Shearim, etc.

Motek wrote:
as for bartering, I agree with you
exchanging items with your friends clarissa, is not the same as being on the receiving end of food or clothing packages

speaking of clothing packages, those who think it's wonderful, no shame, etc. etc. do you feel the same way about Tomchei Shabbos or Yad Eliezer type food packages?


You know, I really want to live in a place where a two income household means my husband has time to learn, the bills are all paid, the kids are wearing the latest and greatest in Jewish fashion, there's a fresh, 3 course meal on the table every weekday and 6 course meals on Shabbat. Oh, and tuition is all paid for and health insurance isn't a problem either.

Edited, PM me with concerns. -Crayon210
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Clarissa




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 22 2008, 1:30 pm
Motek wrote:

exchanging items with your friends clarissa, is not the same as being on the receiving end of food or clothing packages
You're right, and I wouldn't accept food or clothing packages unless I was in really dire straits, which I hope will never be the case.
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shalhevet




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 22 2008, 1:52 pm
Motek wrote:
mali wrote:
Yes, we ask Hashem every day ונא אל תצריכנו...לא לידי מתנת בשר ודם ולא לידי הלוואתם. But when Hashem sends us clothing through someone else, do we dump it and tell Him, "no, give it to me directly from the store"?!


Maybe you would know the story, can't remember with which Chassidic master (maybe in the Zevin books) about he prayed for help and then he came across a gold coin in the mud. He did not take it because he had the bitachon that Hashem would send him the money he needed in a more dignified manner, and so it was.


I heard from a chashuva rov that if you cross the street without being careful, and get to the other side uninjured, it is מוריד מזכויותיו - reduces your merits, because you 'used up' a miracle. I would understand the same logic here - although the Chassid got his second miracle (assuming the story is true) he 'used up' two instead of one. Not everyone might have enough zchuyos for the second.


Quote:
So the answer to your question is - nobody said you have to dump it. But yes, it is in line with Jewish thought to have the bitachon that Hashem will send it another way.





= buy, buy, buy. Go shopping. Spend money. Buy more and more clothes. Bal tashchis.

Quote:
Quote:
The art of giving is an intrinsic jewish trait (גומלי חסדים). This doesn't change according to the person's status or location! And I'd take it a step further and say that one who doesn't know how to take probably doesn't value giving either.


I don't understand what you mean and how it follows.


There is a story about the rov of the town who went collecting money for a poor family in the middle of winter. He knocked on the door of one of the town's wealthy individuals who quickly invited the rov in, out of the snow, into his living room with a roaring fire. To his surprise the rov refused and insisted on speaking to the man outside his front door. Because of his kovod for the rov he agreed. After a few minutes, his teeth chattering, he begged the rov to come inside. The rov said, 'there is a poor family in town. The wife has just given birth and they have no money for logs to heat. The rich man quickly gave a generous donation. The rov explained that only by the man experiencing the cold would he understand the poor family's suffering.
edited by mod2


Last edited by shalhevet on Tue, Jul 22 2008, 5:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Apple pie




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 22 2008, 2:07 pm
Quote:
speaking of clothing packages, those who think it's wonderful, no shame, etc. etc. do you feel the same way about Tomchei Shabbos or Yad Eliezer type food packages?


Taking clothes and taking food is very different.

The food is one time use, and is an extra expense for other people which I would accept only if I can't afford it myself = Tzedaka mamash. (or in special circumstances, birth or r"l avelut)

The used clothing can be used again (if in good condition), is not an extra expense (other than droping it/picking it up) and on the contrary gives a good feeling to everyone: the person who gives, who doesn't do bal tashchit and feels good that her stuff is of use to someone, and the person who receives, who can spend money on different necessities.

See the difference?
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shalhevet




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 22 2008, 2:20 pm
Motek wrote:
Clarissa wrote:
So when I find money (on the street, in the back of a cab), I always give it away, as soon as possible to the next person who is in my path, asking for money. I figure it's not mine and I never really had it, anyway. When I do get gifts (from family or friends), I happily accept, because they're meant for me.


that's nice clarissa though I'm sure some of the posters here think you're crazy or something negative because according to their reasoning, Hashem sent you money and your rejecting it is somehow wrong


If you find (unmarked, unidentifiable) money in a public place, it belongs to you al pi halacha just as if you earned it. Just like money you earned you can choose to keep it or give it to tzedaka. If it is marked (say a particular combination of banknotes, or in a wallet etc, then it belongs to the Jew who lost it, so giving it to someone else is stealing.

Quote:

I know someone who told her daughter who found a large amount of money to give it to tzedaka because in this way, she enables the person who lost the money to do a mitzva (because the halacha is that if you lose money and a poor person finds it and uses it, that you have done the mitzva of tzedaka, albeit inadvertently).

Plenty of people on this forum, in America as well as Israel, definitely fit the halachic definition of a poor person. (if you don't have enough money to live on for a year, not to mention those who are struggling to buy basic necessities and/or are in debt).
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ChossidMom




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 22 2008, 2:20 pm
Motek wrote:
Clarissa wrote:
So when I find money (on the street, in the back of a cab), I always give it away, as soon as possible to the next person who is in my path, asking for money. I figure it's not mine and I never really had it, anyway. When I do get gifts (from family or friends), I happily accept, because they're meant for me.


that's nice clarissa though I'm sure some of the posters here think you're crazy or something negative because according to their reasoning, Hashem sent you money and your rejecting it is somehow wrong



Actually, I don't think that anyone here thinks Clarissa is crazy.

I respect her very much for sharing bits and piecs of her life with us and not being afraid to divulge what she really thinks and does. She is a very REAL person. Whom I like. And respect.
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Motek




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 22 2008, 2:22 pm
Imaonwheels wrote:
Certainly better to live on the chaluka of a tzibbur ready and willing to support their brethren living a life of kedusha in a poor country with no infrastructure and oppressive non jews, and still do your best to serve HaShem than taking hard earned Jewish money to by things while throwing perfectly good clothing away.


Quote:
If you really knew the history of the old yishuv you would know that, esp among the Sefardim, there were many craftsman, no work and constant danger in traveling.


Are you saying that the yishuv was self-supporting or not?

yesha wrote:
Can you support this statement with statistical facts... that poverty levels in the Jewish communities of Kiryas Yoel, New Square, BP, Lakewood, etc are nowhere close to those in Bnei Brak, Mea Shearim, etc.


the point rosenblum was making was not about poverty levels but about a society which was supported by donations from abroad, without which they would have perished
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Clarissa




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 22 2008, 2:40 pm
ChossidMom wrote:
Actually, I don't think that anyone here thinks Clarissa is crazy.
I hope nobody decides to test this with a poll. I don't even know how I'd vote.

ChossidMom wrote:
I respect her very much for sharing bits and piecs of her life with us and not being afraid to divulge what she really thinks and does. She is a very REAL person. Whom I like. And respect.
Aw, shucks. Thanks, and right back at'cha.
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ChossidMom




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 22 2008, 3:25 pm
Clarissa wrote:
ChossidMom wrote:
Actually, I don't think that anyone here thinks Clarissa is crazy.
I hope nobody decides to test this with a poll. I don't even know how I'd vote.

ChossidMom wrote:
I respect her very much for sharing bits and piecs of her life with us and not being afraid to divulge what she really thinks and does. She is a very REAL person. Whom I like. And respect.
Aw, shucks. Thanks, and right back at'cha.


Mr. Green
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Toot




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 22 2008, 3:29 pm
Motek wrote:
morahs wrote:
Motek, where do you draw the line?


Do you really not the see the difference between earning a living and taking tzedaka? (as in the examples you gave)


Of course I do, and I don't appreciate the rude tone. Taking hand-me-downs for the sake of making space in someone elses closet and saving your hard earned money for something else, such a hidur mitzvah purpose or giving tzedaka to others or a slew of other Torah-dik causes, is not "taking tzedaka" in my book.

And as nice as everyone's stories are (mine included), as Shalhavet points out, they are not sources. What a rebbe found in the mud or whatever is not how we decide halakha or even mainstream Jewish values. Principles such as ba'al tashchit, שלי שלי שלך שלך, זה נהנה וזה לא חסר, humility, and basic גמילות חסדים are what should dictate how we act, not one (possibly allegorical) story. And as most of the posts here point out, taking gently used clothing from others to supplement your wardrobe does not run counter to any of these things - maybe it even aid in their observance.

The one issue which Motek brought up and still needs to be addressed is how to understand that line of benching. My two approaches to answering that sort of question are 1) Find out when, where and in what context that line was written to assess how binding it is in terms of practice and how seriously we need to take it in making every day decisions, and 2) Try to understand the line differently, maybe as applying to a specific situation, or in a non literal way. When I do these two things, I'll get back to you...
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ora_43




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 22 2008, 4:17 pm
Motek wrote:
imaonwheels wrote:
It gives the false impression that the Jews in EY are still totally impoverished and scares people from aliya by reinforcing negative stereotypes


So you're saying we shouldn't believe the tzedaka appeals in which they describe the terrible poverty in Eretz Yisrael, much of it on a level unheard of elsewhere?

By "elsewhere" I assume you mean "America"? Because Israel is far, far from being the poorest country on Earth.

There are communities in Israel that are terribly poor. That poverty is largely a result of lifestyle choices (rejecting secular education, for example). Of course we should still help those communities. But we shouldn't scare off Jews living abroad by giving the impression that ALL Israelis live in poverty. It's entirely possible to live a nice life here. DH and I are enjoying a much higher standard of living here than we would in the states, in fact, and we know many families who would say the same.

If someone tells you in a tzedaka appeal that most Israelis are poor, then you shouldn't believe them.

Quote:
as for bartering, I agree with you
exchanging items with your friends clarissa, is not the same as being on the receiving end of food or clothing packages

So when you asked about accepting second-hand clothing, you meant clothing packages from charitable organizations? I (and I assume most other posters) assumed you meant second-hand clothes that were given by a friend or other acquaintance who had no use for them. There's a world of difference between those two scenarios. Could you clarify which you were refering to?
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ora_43




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 22 2008, 4:21 pm
MorahS wrote:
Taking hand-me-downs for the sake of making space in someone elses closet and saving your hard earned money for something else, such a hidur mitzvah purpose or giving tzedaka to others or a slew of other Torah-dik causes, is not "taking tzedaka" in my book.

And as nice as everyone's stories are (mine included), as Shalhavet points out, they are not sources. What a rebbe found in the mud or whatever is not how we decide halakha or even mainstream Jewish values. Principles such as ba'al tashchit, שלי שלי שלך שלך, זה נהנה וזה לא חסר, humility, and basic גמילות חסדים are what should dictate how we act, not one (possibly allegorical) story. And as most of the posts here point out, taking gently used clothing from others to supplement your wardrobe does not run counter to any of these things - maybe it even aid in their observance.

Great points, MorahS!!
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Lady Godiva




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 22 2008, 4:23 pm
I gladly take my sister's slightly used designer purses that she gets sick of when the season is over.
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mali




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 22 2008, 5:45 pm
logged in just to copy this article:

Quote:
Healthy Give and Take
By Elisha Greenbaum


Gregarious as Americans usually are, in my time there I was struck by the social remove that prevailed on the New York public transport system. Rather than use their time to meet and make friends, the Yanks go out of their way to avoid making eye contact with strangers. Having grown up in Australia where it is acceptable, if not encouraged, for complete strangers to strike up conversation while waiting in line at the ATM, it took some time to acclimatise to the different social conventions.

One time on the subway, studiously studying the advertisements and not the people, my attention was forcibly dragged to a tall young man loudly haranguing the crowd. He was a representative of a local homeless shelter collecting for his cause. Buskers and beggars are a common sight in any metropolis, however it was his method of soliciting that captured my interest.
He held two backpacks, one full of sandwiches and the other money. After introducing himself he strolled down the aisle offering the patrons the choice between helping themselves to a sandwich or contributing money to the cause. "If you have, please give. If you need, please take."

Sure, it was a shtick, a method of pointing out the subtle line that hovers between dependency and patronage, and it definitely upped his take. However it got me thinking; to my mind the social worker had encapsulated the traditional Jewish attitude to tzedakah (charity). If you have, you give; it's not yours, it was a gift from G‑d for you to do good with. And if you need, taking is no source of shame; it's just G‑d's way of redressing the balance.

Taking from others when one doesn't need, that is reprehensible. Not giving when one can afford to, that is disgraceful. But there is no shame in accepting from others, secure in the knowledge that if and when your aid is needed, you too will contribute whatever is necessary, whatever you can. Wealth and poverty are temporary conditions, mentcshlichkeit and faith are forever.

When the Torah details the collection made to build and support the Tabernacle. G‑d states "Take for Me an offering." (Exodus 25:2). You'd think He would say "give an offering" not "take," except the verse is pointing out that sometimes taking is also giving.

A while back I spoke to someone about sending his children to a Jewish school. There are generous scholarships on offer for kids transferring from the public system, but he refused. He didn't want to feel beholden to anyone.

To my mind his scruples were misplaced. True, if one looks at the system in miniature, the other guy is giving charity and you're receiving. Well, no one wants to feel like a beggar. But in truth, the ones giving are just fulfilling G‑d's will by allocating His reserves to whomsoever G‑d wishes, and the recipient is also fulfilling G‑d's desire, by directing it towards the proper outcome.

My friend's desire to pay his way or not at all might make sense when holding off on purchasing a boat or a holiday home, but some things are not luxuries, they're necessities of life. His children were missing out on a Jewish education while he dithered with his principles.

And do you think the guy writing the check is not beholden to others? Did he not receive from others; whether a bequest from his folks, the benefit of a good education, luck, superior genes, being in the right place at the right time, whatever. And if you refuse to accept the loan, the gift, call it whatever you like, by the time you can afford to pay your way, are you positive that it won't be too late?

In G‑d's system, where everything is accounted for, and everything ultimately adds up, sometimes taking is truly giving


from chabad.org
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mali




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 22 2008, 6:33 pm
Motek wrote:
mali wrote:
The art of giving is an intrinsic jewish trait (גומלי חסדים). This doesn't change according to the person's status or location! And I'd take it a step further and say that one who doesn't know how to take probably doesn't value giving either.


I don't understand what you mean and how it follows.
I didn't want to be direct, but you asked for it. in the thread about chesed-bad attitude you could not understand why people who can afford things should be getting help. I'm not surprised to see in this thread that you portray someone who receives as someone who's not using his kochos and/or lacking in bitachon and/or not making correct use of the money he has. a similar attitude, sort of portraying the taker as a non-deserver, runs through your posts. maybe someone will be able to word it better than me, but I'm very disturbed by your train of thought.
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mali




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 22 2008, 8:02 pm
some clarification:

we all agree that:
a) hashem created a world of giving and taking עולם חסד יבנה
b) we all daven to hashem to be on the giving side and not on the taking side
c) there will always be people on the taking side
d) getting something straight from hashem is better than getting it from humans (rashi in parshas noach, too lazy to look up the exact verse)
e) giving is an intrinsic quality all jews posess

we can also agree that:
a) most people who take used clothes simply need them
b) there are some people, who will take advantage of the situation that there are people giving and will grab whatever it is, as long as it's free (like in the well known joke with the jews asking for ten commandments).
c) granted that b is true, people on the giving side can also be upset and feel taken advantage of
d) if a person has a only a limited amount of money, he/she should use it wisely and not go poor just because he/she stubbornly doesn't want to accept another's gift/charity.

perhaps we can conclude that we should, aside from davening to hashem to send us our parnassah directly, also not take any more than we need, and perhaps not enjoy the act of taking per se even when we are enjoying the item/benefit we're receiving.

am I making sense?
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mumoo




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 22 2008, 8:49 pm
Quote:
When people want to dispose of old clothing, furniture, toys etc they are usually delighted that someone else will have use of what they are emotionally attached to, rather than it being thrown away. So maybe someone agreeing to use the second hand clothes is 'giving'?


I see this everyday. As grateful as the 'shoppers' in the gmach are, the really grateful ones are the people who are so happy there is a place for them to give their things to- that will go to a family who needs them
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Clarissa




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 22 2008, 8:53 pm
Absolutely. I hate to throw things away, and love when something goes to someone who might enjoy using it.
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BeershevaBubby




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 23 2008, 1:29 am
I have three words... WEDDING GOWN GEMACH.

Maybe I should do a poll and see how many Imamothers went to a wedding gown gemach for their wedding gowns... I think there are also other gown gemachim for the rest of the bridal/Chattan family.

And there are the centerpiece tzedakah 'rentals'....
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