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Would you take clothes?
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ora_43




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 21 2008, 8:29 am
sarahd wrote:
ora_43 wrote:

I don't get the big deal with the bochur who hitched a ride, btw. If you ask someone for money and they give you, they are now lacking a certain sum of money. But if you ask them for a ride, you benefit, they don't lose, what's the big deal? If I had a car, and money for insurance and gas, I'd be more than happy to give rides. It's one of the easiest acts of chessed you can do around here.


I guess you didn't read the article. Rosenblum was looking for a parking space when the bochur asked him for a hitch. It was a beautiful, sunny, cool/warm day. The guy wanted to be taken five blocks. He was still looking for a ride when Rosenblum finished parking his car, five minutes later. He was young and healthy, and his only response when asked why he was asking people to go out of their way for him was "zeh mekubal."

You're right, I didn't read the article embarrassed . I thought Rosenblum was annoyed by the idea that it's "mekubal" to hitchhike in Israel. I didn't realize the guy was asking people who'd parked for a ride, not just hitchhiking. That's not accepted behavior here.

Quote:
This attitude of, "It's an easy chesed for him, so why shouldn't he do something for me that I'm perfectly capable of doing myself" - do you see a problem with that?

When I said "easy chesed," I was thinking of giving rides in the direction that you're already going, not taking someone out of your way.

The reason hitchhiking is so widely accepted here is that hitchhikers are almost never perfectly capable of doing it themselves. When I take rides, it's almost always because there is no other way to get where I'm going, because the town has no bus service at all.

I don't see a problem with asking for something that I'm capable of doing myself if it would be very difficult for me and would probably be easier for the person I'm asking. I do sometimes take rides even when there's a bus that goes to the same place if the trip is much shorter by car, or if the next bus isn't coming for a long time. In that case, the person taking me is losing maybe two minutes by stopping for me and dropping me off, a small amount of gas for the extra weight (I do usually offer to help with gas), and possibly privacy (but since most people are standing at the side of the road with their hand out and not stopping individual drivers and asking them for a ride, I assume that whoever wants privacy just won't stop. They don't need to actually look at me and say "no."). They are saving me over an hour of time, often several hours, and a long wait outdoors.

I remember the same ideas came up on the thread about bringing meals to women who've given birth, and other kinds of chesed where the recipients aren't always truly needy. Then and now, I think most people are technically capable of cooking after birth or of getting from point A to point B (even if they need to save cab money for weeks) on their own. But it's nicer when we give and take chesed and don't make each other (or ourselves) suffer for some unattainable ideal called self sufficiency. Sure, we shouldn't take just because we're lazy, but there's no shame in accepting a favor if you could really use the help.
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yo'ma




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 21 2008, 8:39 am
Who really cares if someone is a "taker"? It's really none of our business. What I mean is, if you are a "giver", are you not going to give to the "taker"?

We need givers and takers. Wink

I admit, I didn't read all the posts, so my question may have been answered, but I doubt it.
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Toot




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 21 2008, 8:54 am
zufriedene wrote:
we rely on HKBH to give us all that we need, but who gave that great LADY IN ENGLAND THE SEICHEL AND MEANS TO SEND A CARTON OF BEAUTIFUL USED CLOTHING, to arrive in EY just before the Yomom tovim or just before a real cold winter a box full of fuzzy sleeping garments and hooded jackets???
I'm convinced shes shaliach HAshem and is a zakai that is zocheh to help yiddishe children in EY. and HKBH picked her out. relying on HKBH means relying on HIm to send the right shlichum, doctors, lawyers, teachers, melamdim, and ppl that can give away their used but presentable clothing. TIzcu lmitzvos.


This was my point, although in slightly different words. Reading this thread made me think about the joke where the guy is drowning, he doesn't take the life ring tossed to him, doesn't get on the raft that floats by, saying "Hashem will save me!" and dies. When he gets to shamayim and asks Hashem, "Why didn't you save me?? I had to much emunah!!" Hashem says - "I sent a life ring, and a raft..."

Point is, yes we believe that Hashem will provide. That mean that when a job with a good salary is offered to us, we accept it, and understand that it is really Hashem providing for us. When schools offer scholarships, we accept, and understand that it is really Hashem providing for us. And, when someone shows up with used clothes that they no longer need, we must understand it as Hashem's way of providing for us.

Motek, where do you draw the line?
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greentiger




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 21 2008, 10:10 am
I think Rosenblum's article was taken totally out of context. The equivelent here would probably be not to go knocking by your neighbor and ask for their old clothes, telling them that you are not buying new ones (even though you could afford it) so you'll wait till they get rid of theirs.

The bocher in the story was perfectly capable of walking and he needed to get just a short distance (I believe Rosenblum spoke to him about it), but chose to wait in the heat for a ride and ended up waiting on this street corner with his finger out way longer than it would have taken him to get there. Rosenblum wrote how it bothered him to see a yeshiva bocher acting that way. I don't know where making good use of clothes that are headed to the garbage come into this story.
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Imaonwheels




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 21 2008, 11:46 pm
I have mixed feelings about boxes from chutz. It gives the false impression that the Jews in EY are still totally impoverished and scares people from aliya by reinforcing negative stereotypes. Also much of what my mil brings is cheaper here. For one who can I would prefer these people shop here as we have everything.

As to clothing and gemachim. I think not embarrassing the recipient should be our primary concern. That is one of the reasons why many are setting up like stores that take a small fee towards tzedaka and expenses of the gemach. Our store takes 2 shekel for each thing and the money goes to the shul, which is under construction.

Every erev Pesach the gemach is so inundated those running them beg people not to bring more. More than the calf wants to suck the cow wants to give milk... I think of clothing gemachs are not even gifts for many of us. They are trading clothes by barter, almost a business or coop. You couldn't move in my house were it not for the gemach.

One of my best friends has had a gemach in her house for the last 25 years. She asked the rav if she could chose for her family first and the rav said to her ."Why not, you are no less than other yidden". This is not a rich family but they have 2 professional incomes. When one shul which has a reputation for wearing very expensive Bnai Brak clothes brings their bags she would always call me to get a move on it to her place to take for myself and dd. (I think the tzedekes still does it, take note Rechovot residents)

It definitely is a win win situation and think of it as a barter business if yidden stam helping each other bothers you. Maybe we shouldn't bake cakes for women who give birth either.
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ChossidMom




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 22 2008, 1:01 am
shalhevet wrote:


It's a shame that we were given the impression that Rosenblum thinks that anyone getting a hitch is a taker. It would have been fairer to us and to Rosenblum to bring the story in context.

Of course there is a difference between a story like this (and why didn't the esteemed Mr Rosenblum - whoever he is - dan lchaf zechus if he is such a tzaddik that we have to hang onto his every word). How did he know this bachur was healthy?

If the bachur really was young and healthy then I also see a problem in this. I was 'plagued' by someone like this a few years ago when we had children in the same gan. If we dropped off our kids at the same time she'd ask for a lift, and once it was into town. I really feel that sometimes people without a car do not understand how expensive/ time consuming/ a burden it is to give people lifts. I can be dan lchaf zchus that, having become used to taking cabs, buses and walking, it just seems so quick and simple (and free) to them for someone to give them a lift.

However that is completely different from someone asking for a ride when you are going that way anyway -
זה נהנה וזה אינו חסר

In Pirkei Avos it says that someone who says
שלי שלי ושלך שלך

What is mine, is mine, and what is yours, is yours (ie no chessed and no stealing) - this is the midda (characteristic) of Sdom.


I'm sorry I didn't write this post. You literally covered everything I wanted to say!!! Sometimes people think that just because I have a car it's real simple for me to drive them around. They honestly don't realize the tircha and hardship and I'm not about to explain it to them.

And thanks for bringing that quote from Pirkei Avos! Thumbs Up
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Tefila




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 22 2008, 1:16 am
Quote:
As we go through life we have times that we are 'takers' and others when we are 'givers'.

Exactly and those that are don't unfortunatley isolate themselves and have little to no friends!

I know of someone who was very independant, didn't want anyones food when she had her baby, didn't want anyones help for a kiddush, didn't want anyones help when she moved into her new home, didn't want anyones help with car pooling her kids, didn't want any ones help when her husband was sick in hospital since she could manage with her mother and she didn't want to 'burden' others.
Guess what when he passed R"l Crying very few actually came to the shiva Exclamation Exclamation

Also concerning that hitching a ride perhaps the bochur had a condition and needed it . Eighter way the bachur can make that decision not the one asked to do a mitzvah, if we always questioned peoples motive for needing us then few mitzvahs imho would be performed
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ChossidMom




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 22 2008, 1:29 am
Tefila wrote:
Quote:
As we go through life we have times that we are 'takers' and others when we are 'givers'.

Exactly and those that are don't unfortunatley isolate themselves and have little to no friends!

I know of someone who was very independant, didn't want anyones food when she had her baby, didn't want anyones help for a kiddush, didn't want anyones help when she moved into her new home, didn't want anyones help with car pooling her kids, didn't want any ones help when her husband was sick in hospital since she could manage with her mother and she didn't want to 'burden' others.
Guess what when he passed R"l Crying very few actually came to the shiva Exclamation Exclamation

Also concerning that hitching a ride perhaps the bochur had a condition and needed it . Eighter way the bachur can make that decision not the one asked to do a mitzvah, if we always questioned peoples motive for needing us then few mitzvahs imho would be performed


You're right about questioning motives.
That being said, I have to tell you that my husband, who is a very giving kind of guy, was recently complaining to me that grownups and kids are constantly putting their hands out to hitch a ride UP OR DOWN THE STREET (like 3 houses down) here in Kiryat Sefer. He remembers how as a boy he walked for kilometers through the orange groves in Rechovot to get to school (trudging miles through the snow hahaha). Something has changed in this generation. Hey, I'm not one for walking miles through orange groves either. But I've lived my whole life with a car. You should see these 13 year olds hitching rides!
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Motek




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 22 2008, 12:38 pm
nishtikeit wrote:
There is a story about Rebbetzin Chaya Mushka who offered some boys something for helping her and they said that they were told in their home not to take from people. Rebbetzin Chaya Mushka replied that she was taught in her home, that if someone offers, take.
So if someone offers someone clothes, etc., it seems like it would not be a lack of bitachon to take.


When you read the actual story, the lesson is quite different I think.

A bochur once saw the rebbetzin carrying bags and and took them for her. When he brought them in the Rebbetzin gave him a bar of chocolate. To which he said I was raised in a chassidic home and I was taught to do a mitzvah bishlaimus and not to take a reward. The rebbetzin replied, "Mir hot men oich gehodevet in a chassidishe shtub oon men hot mir gelernt az men git nemt men ubifrat shokolad "(I was also raised in a chassidic home and I was taught that when given something one should take it, especially chocolate).
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Motek




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 22 2008, 12:58 pm
mali wrote:
Yes, we ask Hashem every day ונא אל תצריכנו...לא לידי מתנת בשר ודם ולא לידי הלוואתם. But when Hashem sends us clothing through someone else, do we dump it and tell Him, "no, give it to me directly from the store"?!


Maybe you would know the story, can't remember with which Chassidic master (maybe in the Zevin books) about he prayed for help and then he came across a gold coin in the mud. He did not take it because he had the bitachon that Hashem would send him the money he needed in a more dignified manner, and so it was. So the answer to your question is - nobody said you have to dump it. But yes, it is in line with Jewish thought to have the bitachon that Hashem will send it another way.

as for the boat, helicopter story ... Wink

Quote:
Are those the priorities we should raise our children with - "don't take anything from anyone if you can spend money on it and buy it in the store!"???


You sound horrified at the idea. I'm not sure why. Maybe parents raise their children to pay their own way and it's considered admirable by many not, nisht untzukumen tzu andere (not to "come on" to anyone).

Quote:
The art of giving is an intrinsic jewish trait (גומלי חסדים). This doesn't change according to the person's status or location! And I'd take it a step further and say that one who doesn't know how to take probably doesn't value giving either.


I don't understand what you mean and how it follows.
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Clarissa




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 22 2008, 1:04 pm
Motek wrote:

Maybe you would know the story, can't remember with which Chassidic master (maybe in the Zevin books) about he prayed for help and then he came across a gold coin in the mud. He did not take it because he had the bitachon that Hashem would send him the money he needed in a more dignified manner, and so it was. So the answer to your question is - nobody said you have to dump it. But yes, it is in line with Jewish thought to have the bitachon that Hashem will send it another way.
I haven't read this thread and I probably should before I comment, but it reminds me of this, so I'll post it anyway. I'm not wealthy and happily take hand-me-downs from friends (toys, books, clothes) because I like to get free stuff and I also like the notion of recycling, but I've always had this policy about found money -- I never keep it. If I happen upon some money, I think about the fact that somebody could have come along five minutes later who is desperately poor, and really needs it. So when I find money (on the street, in the back of a cab), I always give it away, as soon as possible to the next person who is in my path, asking for money. I figure it's not mine and I never really had it, anyway. When I do get gifts (from family or friends), I happily accept, because they're meant for me.
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Motek




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 22 2008, 1:06 pm
YESHASettler wrote:
Yeah, because there are no such thing as a schnorrer from BP, Monsey, lakewood, etc.


YESHA - do you know the history of the early religious yishuv in Eretz Yisrael, pre-State till the present and how it was supported?
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Purplehair




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 22 2008, 1:08 pm
mali wrote:

Yes, we ask Hashem every day ונא אל תצריכנו...לא לידי מתנת בשר ודם ולא לידי הלוואתם. But when Hashem sends us clothing through someone else, do we dump it and tell Him, "no, give it to me directly from the store"?! Are those the priorities we should raise our children with - "don't take anything from anyone if you can spend money on it and buy it in the store!"???

I find this concept troubling and condescending. The art of giving is an intrinsic jewish trait (גומלי חסדים). This doesn't change according to the person's status or location! And I'd take it a step further and say that one who doesn't know how to take probably doesn't value giving either.



I completely agree with you here Mali.
This reminds me greatly of a story my DH would tell about a frum Yid who is at sea and his boat sinks. While he is in the water, he davens to Hashem to save him, saying how he has complete trust in Hashem to rescue him. In the meanwhile, a boat comes by and offers to take the man from the water, but he turns it down because he says that he has Emunah in HKBH. Then a helicopter comes by and offers to throw him a ladder so that he can be lifted to safety. He gives the same answer to them, saying that he has complete Emunah in Hashem and he doesn't want to rely on humans.
Finally, the man dies and goes to shamayim. When he arrives, he questions Hashem as to how he could have let him die, seeing as his Emunah was so great. HKBH answers him "I sent you a boat and a helicopter, what more could you want?"
Moral of the story? Hashem's help can come in many different forms (..a bag of used clothing from a neighbor, perhaps?) There is no reason to think that taking someone's generous offer makes you any less reliant on Hashem, since He is the one who sent them to you.

(Incidentally, I have been on both the giving and receiving end when it comes to passing along clothing Smile)
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Motek




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 22 2008, 1:09 pm
Clarissa wrote:
So when I find money (on the street, in the back of a cab), I always give it away, as soon as possible to the next person who is in my path, asking for money. I figure it's not mine and I never really had it, anyway. When I do get gifts (from family or friends), I happily accept, because they're meant for me.


that's nice clarissa though I'm sure some of the posters here think you're crazy or something negative because according to their reasoning, Hashem sent you money and your rejecting it is somehow wrong

I know someone who told her daughter who found a large amount of money to give it to tzedaka because in this way, she enables the person who lost the money to do a mitzva (because the halacha is that if you lose money and a poor person finds it and uses it, that you have done the mitzva of tzedaka, albeit inadvertently).
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Maya




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 22 2008, 1:10 pm
Purplehair, I love that story, and repeat it often. It really brings out the point.
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Clarissa




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 22 2008, 1:12 pm
Okay, I read a bunch of the thread. Interesting, I wish I'd read it earlier. My friends and I exchange all sorts of things -- books, maternity clothes, baby clothes. Last year, a woman from my kid's school was pregnant, and I offered her my maternity clothes. She happily accepted. Another friend heard about this and said, "I'm shocked, I mean she's wealthy! She takes your old stuff?" I was happy to give it to her, and I gave a bunch of stuff to this local soup kitchen that gives away clothes.

I also have a friend who gives me her old handbags. I shouldn't say old, because they're hardly used -- I've posted about her before. She loves to shop and cleans her closet a lot, so I get stuff like almost new Coach bags. If only I was a Size 0 or 2, I'd get some great clothes. She has the best-dressed cleaning woman in town.

Anyway, I don't think there's anything wrong with taking, if someone offers. It keeps things circulating.
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BeershevaBubby




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 22 2008, 1:16 pm
Motek wrote:
YESHASettler wrote:
Yeah, because there are no such thing as a schnorrer from BP, Monsey, lakewood, etc.


YESHA - do you know the history of the early religious yishuv in Eretz Yisrael, pre-State till the present and how it was supported?


My comment was in regards to the social implication of your statement rather than the historical reference.
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Clarissa




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 22 2008, 1:16 pm
Motek wrote:
Clarissa wrote:
So when I find money (on the street, in the back of a cab), I always give it away, as soon as possible to the next person who is in my path, asking for money. I figure it's not mine and I never really had it, anyway. When I do get gifts (from family or friends), I happily accept, because they're meant for me.


that's nice clarissa though I'm sure some of the posters here think you're crazy or something negative because according to their reasoning, Hashem sent you money and your rejecting it is somehow wrong
Maybe so, but when I see somebody sitting on the sidewalk, hungry, I remember that I was given a wonderful childhood, with generous parents, who would never let that happen to me. So maybe that's what G-d gave me, and the rest is gravy? So I'm not rejecting, but just keeping my perspective on what I've already been given? Anyway, it's so easy to give something away that was never yours to begin with! On the other hand, I might very well be crazy...

Truth be told, since I stopped working I don't think I give enough to tzedakah, so maybe when I find $5 on the sidewalk, it's a little reminder to think about others.
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Motek




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 22 2008, 1:22 pm
morahs wrote:
Motek, where do you draw the line?


Do you really not the see the difference between earning a living and taking tzedaka? (as in the examples you gave)

imaonwheels wrote:
It gives the false impression that the Jews in EY are still totally impoverished and scares people from aliya by reinforcing negative stereotypes


So you're saying we shouldn't believe the tzedaka appeals in which they describe the terrible poverty in Eretz Yisrael, much of it on a level unheard of elsewhere?

as for bartering, I agree with you
exchanging items with your friends clarissa, is not the same as being on the receiving end of food or clothing packages

speaking of clothing packages, those who think it's wonderful, no shame, etc. etc. do you feel the same way about Tomchei Shabbos or Yad Eliezer type food packages?
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greenfire




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 22 2008, 1:24 pm
it depends which one of us ... but me & my kids have - but we are picky with what we take ...

so long as people do not give away shmattas - that is when I get offended ...
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