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How are the Bodies of Jews Different?
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Motek




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 18 2004, 9:18 am
I did not see the following in the original, just saw it quoted (if somebody can tell us where it is, it would be appreciated):

Quote:
The Chasam Sofer said a Jew's body is so different from a gentile's that only doctors with special training in its particular characteristics should treat it.


In a talk given by the Lubavitcher Rebbe on 22 Shevat 5752, footnote 101, it says:

Quote:
As it is explained in sefarim that through kashrus of food and drink, a change is effected in the mahus v'teva ha'adam (essence and nature of a person) who eats and drinks these foods and drinks, since they become blood and flesh as his flesh.


the Mittler Rebbe in Toras Chaim Shemos says:

Quote:
it's well-known (?!) that the dochek ha'lev (pulse) of a Jew is different on Shabbos because of the h'oras ha'taanug (illumination of pleasure).


so the question is: what role do health statistics play in the life of an observant Jew?
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ForeverYoung

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Post Thu, Nov 18 2004, 10:45 am
first, a question to Motek:
do you use doctors?
do you take any medications?

there wa a boy in Bnei Brak who got sick & refused to let his parents take him to a doctor. He went to his Rosh Yeshiva and said: "we know that all ilnesses come b/c of spiritual faults. What should I work on to heal?
the Rav answered, it is true, but we live in a different world today, we do not have neviim - go to the doctor!!!!!!

may be we should see specially trained docs only, but:
1. who is in the position to train them?
2. do you know at least 1 such doctor?

and the last: as far as I know, you Rav, the last Lub. Rebbi had no problems with being treated by doctors.

Quote:
so the question is: what role do health statistics play in the life of an observant Jew?

what is your answer to this question?
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de_goldy




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 18 2004, 1:54 pm
Forever young - you seem to be on the attack for absolutely anything Motek says. Before you post, just think about whether you disagree with the post, or if you just enjoy attacking the poster.

Having said that - I will put in my 2 cents.

Firstly, you wrote,
Quote:
and the last: as far as I know, you Rav, the last Lub. Rebbi had no problems with being treated by doctors.



Just a technical correction - the Rebbe was not a Rav. He did not pasken halacha.

Second,
Quote:

Quote:
so the question is: what role do health statistics play in the life of an observant Jew?

what is your answer to this question?


The rest of your post seems to be assuming Motek means we should not use medicine or doctors. However, that was not the question.
Unless I misunderstood, Motek is asking of what relevence to us are health statistics. To explain - statistics are drawn from a large sample of the wider population. ie. mainly non-jews. Thus, according to the quotes provided by Motek, it would seem that because our bodies are different to theirs, statistics derived from studies on gentiles would not necessarily be relevent to us.
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amother


 

Post Thu, Nov 18 2004, 2:34 pm
Ok listen up all of you
are we discussing this for practical purposes?
de goldy it seems to me that she is concerned about the implications of what Motek is saying, if you have a problem with her take it up in a private PM as Yael would say!

I found once a letter from the Rebbe telling someone that they should do what the doctor says and he was telling this person, not to listen to people who tell him or her that "the doctors think they are G-d don't listen etc", because the doctors are hashems messengers.

I've never come across the concept that motek is bringing up but even if we go with it lets say, ok our bodies are different etc. but what relevance does that have if the doctor who is treating us is Hashems shliach and is doing Hashems will so regardless of Medical research.......
get what I'm saying?
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Motek




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 18 2004, 3:10 pm
thank you de_goldy, you understood

there are two issues here:

1) what is our understanding of what a Jew is

2) what are the practical implications

re issue #1:

Chassidus explains that the uniqueness of a Jew is not merely something "extra" that we have above the rest of humanity, but that Jews are completely different and that the gap between the inanimate and plant life, between plant life and animal life, and between animal life and humans, is nothing compared to the infinite difference between all those categories and the Jewish people.

Why is this so? Because the other categories are part of Creation and its limitations, while a Jew is connected to the Creator who is infinite and above creation.

consequently, "Jewishness" is not something additional, external, or acquired; a Jew cannot separate himself from his Jewishness. This is why every Jew is a believer in G-d.

This essential difference between Jews and the rest of humanity began when Hashem told Avrohom "Lech lecha," and was further developed when Hashem told Avrohom to circumcise himself, making a covenant with Avrohom's children forever.

Why is circumcision necessary? Because before the bris, the connection with Hashem is merely a soul connection. After the bris, the connection is also with the physical body, which means that even physical flesh becomes holy and connected with G-dliness.
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Motek




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 18 2004, 3:30 pm
re issue #2:

Quote:
what relevance does that have if the doctor who is treating us is Hashem's shliach and is doing Hashem's will so regardless of Medical research....


it says in the Torah that a doctor has permission to heal

if a person merits it, the doctor will be accompanied by the Angel Refael and will be the shliach to heal the person

at the same time though, we have to know that it is not the doctor who healed, but Hashem! That the doctor is no different than the axe in the hand of the woodchopper. The axe is the tool used to cut the tree, but obviously, the axe is nothing without the man who wields it

the relevance in knowing that Jews are completely different than non jews (particularly observant Jews who keep Shabbos and kashrus, see first post), in addition to other fundamental concepts such as that of Divine Providence, is that this gives us a completely different outlook than that of the rest of the world

Jews are NEVER bound by statistics, and it's surprising that you would even think so ForeverYoung, because it was you who posted that a Jew has no mazal! As I explained in that thread, a Jew does have mazal but is not bound by it. A [gentile], on the other hand, has a mazal and IS bound by it.

Statistically, Jews should have been extinct a long time ago! That we are here today defies all laws of statistics. What is true on a collective level, is true on an individual level.

but you know what? G-d allows us the choice of living a life of natural cause and effect. G-d says, you want to live that way? Fine. (well almost fine, as long as you remember that all cause and effect comes from G-d)

But if you choose to raise yourself up above that, G-d will "go along with that" too.

It's up to us to choose the level we wish to operate on.

And let me tell you, if you think it's easy to have bitachon as you accept all the statistics, you're fooling yourself. It's easy to pay lip-service to the concept that everything comes from G-d, but when a person lives his life as though they've got it all under control, they're proving otherwise ...
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Rivka




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 18 2004, 3:49 pm
I have never heard of a Jew physically being different, I know Jews are different from all non-Jews coz we have a different soul altogether.
It sounds like an interesting concept.
It's a bit like when these scientists found a link between all Cohens in the males they all have a similar gene in their Y chromosone (sp?) so maybe there is something in it, maybe someone has to do that sort of research to find something similar in our DNA that isn't present in non Jews, plus you have to take into account those non Jews who have Jewish fathers, maybe this part of the DNA gets passed through the women...you never know.
This might not mean that we need different medicines than those of non Jews, but we don't buy over the counter medications that are not Kosher for starters. (I am not counting prescribed medication).
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Motek




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 18 2004, 3:50 pm
I personally avoid doctors and medication as much as I can. While high school classmates regularly went to the office for aspirin, I never did. I've had to take medication, whether over-the-counter or prescription, but thank G-d, very, very little.

to be honest, I cannot say that my view on medicine is shaped SOLELY by Torah sources, or that I learned these Torah sources first and then formulated my view

I would say that it's a combination - my desire to stay away from doctors and medication, which is reinforced by the Torah sources

somebody told me that the Steipler Gaon wrote (wish I knew where) that when he observed that he had certain troubling symptoms, he prayed rather than have them diagnosed

why? because checking them out and having a diagnosis makes a "metzius" out of whatever it was, and it's much harder to pray that this be cured than if it's merely symptoms without a diagnosis

to me it sounds like the Gemara in meseches Shabbos where R. Yitzchok b. R. Yehudah said: A man must always pray that he should not become sick, for if sickness befalls him, he must be possessed of special virtues in order to get well again

what can I tell you - this "resonates" with me

as does the Gemara about blessing being found in that which is hidden from the eye

I wish I was on the level where I was motivated purely by the Torah sources and had no personal negios (subjective reasons). Since personal negios are mixed in here, I don't advocate my approach as The Approach. Nor do I want the responsibility for advising other people in their medical choices.

At the same time though, I certainly don't find it necessary to pay homage to the doctor-only route. On the contrary. Even from purely a health perspective (without Torah sources), I think people should be discouraged from making doctors, medicine, and "health news" a major part of their life.

I pray that Hashem keep me and my loved ones healthy, and if you think I'm not doing enough hishtadlus, then by all means, add your prayers to mine for my continued good health!
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Tefila




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 18 2004, 4:59 pm
Quote:
I pray that Hashem keep me and my loved ones healthy, and if you think I'm not doing enough hishtadlus, then by all means, add your prayers to mine for my continued good health!

Smile well said
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ForeverYoung

Guest


 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 18 2004, 6:13 pm
Quote:
Forever young - you seem to be on the attack for absolutely anything Motek says

this is a spin off a different discussion, & it sort of continued here

Quote:
my desire to stay away from doctors and medication, which is reinforced by the Torah sources

could you provide the soirces. pls?

Quote:
Steipler Gaon wrote (wish I knew where) that when he observed that he had certain troubling symptoms, he prayed rather than have them diagnosed <...> Gemara in meseches Shabbos where R. Yitzchok b. R. Yehudah said: A man must always pray that he should not become sick, for if sickness befalls him, he must be possessed of special virtues in order to get well again

there are very few people who can do that, you can't apply it to us!!! (see story ^)

Quote:
but we don't buy over the counter medications that are not Kosher for starters

and what do you think people did when such were not avail?

Quote:
Jews are NEVER bound by statistics, and it's surprising that you would even think so ForeverYoung, because it was you who posted that a Jew has no mazal!

c'mon! statistics are a collection of organized data.
surely, the jews defy them pretty often, but there is a seder haolam & relying on miracles is not encouraged.
I never said rely on them, but we should use them as a guide before making desisions.

Quote:
if you think it's easy to have bitachon as you accept all the statistics

shock what are you reffering to?????
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Rochel Leah




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 18 2004, 6:26 pm
motek, would you take homeopathic remedies..is that according to torah?

seconf=dly do you believe in kabalistic healing practises like putting pigeons on a person suferring from hepititas's stomach and they remove the sickness , and the pigeons die from it...( I know it works) ...
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amother


 

Post Thu, Nov 18 2004, 6:29 pm
you know, may be my body is different, but if not for not-frum and (the horror of horrors) christian nurse, and studies done on (could you imagine that) statistical data, I'd be dead today.
I just wouldn't stop bleeding after the labor.
I was put on some pills (all I remember is that they were pink) that stopped the bleeding. I couldn't even daven, b/c I had no chance to wash up. My husband went to daven shacharis & wasn't there either. I was all alone, & I didn;t even know I might have been bleeding to death. I just paged the nurse to change my pad because it felt too wet. What I found out when she came scared me beyond description - imagine: alone, just had a baby, alone, blood pooring out of me like out of a fountain.....

Now, who needs the statistics???
(PS is it o'k that I was included into statistical data of usefulness of those pink pills?)
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amother


 

Post Thu, Nov 18 2004, 7:17 pm
2 yrs before I got married, during a surgery, a doctor had discovered that I have a sertain... well, not exactly a disease, a condition. According to the statistics, I had a 50/50 chance of having or, HV'S, not having children and usually (according to the same statistics) with this condition, my chances decrease.
The doctor took upon himself the liberty of taking care of it right there and then.

I am forever greatful to the doctor, to those who made the statistics on this matter, and to H', who allowed the statistics to be gathered - for the children I have and will have in the future, IY'H.

Again, I might have had children anyway, but the statistics show that every month it gets worth, & I had 2 years till I got married.....
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chestnut




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Nov 19 2004, 7:19 am
Quote:
personally avoid doctors and medication as much as I can.


Motek, it is pretty clear from all your remarks about using tests, docs, etc. I think that maybeif u would add that it's your personal opinion, your posts might not sound too preachy (as if this is the truth, and there is no opinion/choice).

as we see from others' posts, there r all sorts of situations out there. docs, research, statistics, tests, and everything else in this world were created by Hashem for a reason, and if it could benefit us, I don't see any reason not to use them.

I personally also never heard of jews' bodies different from non jews's, but, hey, I'm sure, there is a lot out there I don't know about.
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gryp




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Nov 19 2004, 7:39 am
I dont think the point here is "if you have something wrong you shouldnt go to the doctor." obviously if your sick, or you need surgery or something, by all means, take care of yourself.

I also avoid doctors and hospitals and medicine as much as I can. bh, Hashem has given me and my family the opportunity to afford to do so. we are very lucky. bh, bli ayin hara, the only time I was ever in a hospital was in the maternity ward!
I never take tylenol, advil,... bh, I dont have to. I am very lucky.
but if I had something serious, I would RUN to the doctor/hospital.

here is I once heard someone counts her blessings: "bh, I have 2 working eyes, a nose =3, a healthy mouth =4, 2 ears that hear well=6, 2 lungs=8, 2 kidneys working perfectly=10,.... and ends up with many many blessings that we are all thankful for.

let us keep in mind these blessings are all from Hashem and only Hashem.


Last edited by gryp on Wed, Nov 24 2004, 7:27 am; edited 1 time in total
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chestnut




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Nov 19 2004, 7:53 am
Quote:
let us keep in mind these blessings are all from Hashem and only Hashem.


no one ever doubts it!! Very Happy

of course, everyone (I shoudl hope) would agree that if someone, cv'h, needs a surgery, he should run to the hospital. however, there r some ppl (myself included) who feel that if they can get a check up with a possibility of preventing smth (without a side effect), they should go for it. diff. ppl, diff. opinions/attitudes. and this has to recognized; there is no one halacha about such things; just a matter of personal opinion.
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gryp




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Nov 19 2004, 8:04 am
actually the question is "What role do health statistics play in the life of an observant Jew?"

how are statistics taken exactly? by whom exactly?

I dont pay attention to them much so I dont know the answer to these questions exactly.
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chestnut




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Nov 19 2004, 8:44 am
actually, the question is "How are the Bodies of Jews Different?" Wink Very Happy
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zuncompany




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Nov 19 2004, 9:25 am
Motek, even the Rebbe used docs. How many came rushing to his aid shmini atzeres?
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Tefila




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Nov 19 2004, 11:31 am
You are all Right and.... thats that Exclamation Very Happy
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