How are the Bodies of Jews Different?

TzenaRena

Thu, Feb 16 2006, 1:32 am

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In addition it is not true that shalosh klipos cannot be elevated.

That's in direct contradiction to Tanya.

I recall learning that shunning the three kelipos hatemeios is the only way to elevate them.

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very learned and chassidishe shliach who informed me that the Alter Rebbe in the Tanya did not speak derogatorily about non jews and anyone who interprets the Tanya and chassidus in general as denigrating to the nonJews is doing a tremendous disservice to chabad and frumkeit in general. She

Read the account of the Alter Rebbe's arrest and liberation.

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During his interrogation he was asked many questions including why malchus is the last category and called "eretz", which is denigrating to the idea of kingship, and other questions, why the Baal shem Tov was in the habit of saying in the midsst of davening the word "Haf, af af". the slanderers had explained this to mean that he was praying for hashem to bring down "af - anger and wrath on the government. and that the Alter Rebbe sent bribery (funds) to the Turkish Sultan because he wished to commit treason against the the government, etc. etc.

The last question ws on that which is stated in his sefer haTanya, at the end of the first perek, that the nefesh hachiyunis of a Jew is from kelipas nogah, which also has good in it, "which is not the case with the souls of the nations, they are from the rest of the impure kelipos which have no good in them at all".

The Alter Rebbe answered them on each and every question and all his words were spoken with righteious humility, he did not attempt to belittle his opponents, only to show the justification for his postiion.

During the twelve last days of his imprisonment, these being the most bitter days of all for the Alter Rebbe, they harrassed him by questioning him on many fundamentals: What is a Jew? What is G-d? What is the connection of Jews with G-d and what is G-d's connection with the Jews?

It pained the Alter Rebbe to hear the questions on delicate concepts of G-dliness being couched in such coarse and unrefined language, he would burst into tears to hear such questions, and on everything he had to explain in such a way that the crude minds of the interrogators should also understand........(skipping a bit)

When they came to the last question on the words of Tanya at the end of the first perek, he didn't answer anything, but he was silent, and smiled. This silence, withthe smile, the interrogating officers accepted as an answer and they didn't continue asking.

After the Alter Rebbe was released, he said to his close followers, that his intention was to say: don't you see that on all the 21 questions I answered appropriately, and you were convinced that my words are true and correct ? and if so when I answer you on this last question you will surely again be convinced that also my words about the souls of the nations of the world are correct.

Why therefore do you need this clarification? It is better that this question remain without an answer... and the Alter Rebbe said that the interrogating officers understood his intent very well, and they also agreed to it.

And thus the Alter Rebbe answered all the questions with wonderous wisdom and the answers were well accepted by the officials.
(Sefer haToldos Admur HaZaken pg. 206-208)

As this story illustrates, the truths that the Alter Rebbe wrote in Tanya were not for the purpose of belittling anyone, but rather for our Avodas Hashem, to know who we are in relation to ourselves, and the world, and who they are. in relation to us.

The Alter Rebbe didn't modify or excuse what he said in Tanya to the officials. and they accepted that.

queen

Thu, Feb 16 2006, 9:37 am

don't have time to read the whole thread, so hope this is original and not posted already.....

years ago doctors were doing DNA tests on Kohanim as they were claiming their DNA was diff. than leviyim and yisroel.

if anyone has further info on this, I'd be interested to know!

Motek

Thu, Feb 16 2006, 10:49 am

queen wrote:

if anyone has further info on this, I'd be interested to know!

see thread "Y Chromosomes and Kohanim" in the News section:

http://imamother.com/forum/vie.....7e64d

mandy wrote:

I would like to share that I have recently discussed a similar topic with a very learned and chassidishe shliach who informed me that the Alter Rebbe in the Tanya did not speak derogatorily about non jews and anyone who interprets the Tanya and chassidus in general as denigrating to the nonJews is doing a tremendous disservice to chabad and frumkeit in general.

nu? so let's hear how she explains the lines in Tanya, including the quote from the Gemara, that just might sound derogatory to some people? What's the point in hearing that she spoke harshly about it without hearing her explanation?

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In addition it is not true that shalosh klipos cannot be elevated.

go ahead and explain how they can be elevated

Mandy

Mon, Feb 20 2006, 9:50 am

Her position is that the Alter Rebbe merely describes some subtle differences in the way a Jew connects vs. a non-Jew, differences that are almost never visible in day-to-day life or to the casual observer. These descriptions are not meant to show that one is "better" than the other, for that is something only Hashem can judge- which individual person is better than another.
In the first perek, the Baal Hatanya explains that at some level of the soul, there is more of a natural pull towards G-dliness from the Jew. But this difference is apparent only in some extreme situations, like an auto-da-fe, not in daily life. And as history shows, it is not even practically apparent with all Jews; even this instinct can be concealed, She says that the position that non jews have no good in them whatsoever is completely untenable so the Alter Rebbe must be talking about something else.

Just like you wouldn't say that a person with more physical strength is somehow "better" than one with less, so too here. Anyway, I do not necessarily buy all of it, just bringing her interpretation here. Quite different from some other perspectives that I've heard.

Mandy

Mon, Feb 20 2006, 9:59 am

On the elevation of shalosh kelipos :

1. Rabbi Moshe Miller ( Chicago) :

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In kashrus as well: it is forbidden to add milk to meat or vice versa l'chatchila. However, if it happened inadvertently, and the milk is botul b'shishim, the entire mixture becomes kosher. Bnei Yissachar has a whole biur on how this elevates the shlos kelipos ha'temeos.

2. I have also heard the following :

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nonJews can elevated animal, crabs, etc. that we can't. If a ben Noach eats food that is treif for a Jew and uses it to keep his mitzvos then he is elevating it

queen

Mon, Feb 20 2006, 10:03 am

thanks motek!

Motek

Tue, Feb 21 2006, 6:44 pm

Mandy wrote:

Her position is that the Alter Rebbe merely describes some subtle differences

problem with her position is that the Alter Rebbe doesn't "merely" describe stark differences, but speaks about them at length

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differences that are almost never visible in day-to-day life or to the casual observer

the differences are often quite apparent

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In the first perek, the Baal Hatanya explains that at some level of the soul, there is more of a natural pull towards G-dliness from the Jew.

In the first perek, the Baal Ha'Tanya explains that there are two nefashos, one originating in kelipa sitra achra from which stem all evil traits as well as the good traits inherent in every Jew's character, because in a Jew, this soul of kelipa is from kelipas noga.

The Baal Ha'Tanya goes on to say that the souls of the nations of the world stem from the other, unclean kelipos that contain no good whatsoever.

It's not about a "natural pull" but an entirely different spiritual makeup.

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But this difference is apparent only in some extreme situations, like an auto-da-fe, not in daily life.

not true

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And as history shows, it is not even practically apparent with all Jews; even this instinct can be concealed

very rare as it's apparent in the vast majority of Jews as proven in history (as the Baal Ha'Tanya himself says)

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She says that the position that non jews have no good in them whatsoever is completely untenable so the Alter Rebbe must be talking about something else.

fascinating line this one ... she decided what makes sense to her and concludes that the Alter Rebbe can't be saying what he seems to be saying ...

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just bringing her interpretation here.

Who is she to have an interpretion? Is that like the new practice of "telling your own medrash?" If her understanding of Tanya is not founded on the Rebbe's biurim of Tanya and that of previous, accepted commentaries of Chassidim, what is it worth?

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Quite different from some other perspectives that I've heard

uh, for good reason ...

Motek

Tue, Feb 21 2006, 6:46 pm

Mandy wrote:

Bnei Yissachar has a whole biur on how this elevates the shlos kelipos ha'temeos.

the Alter Rebbe himself says that when you do teshuva m'ahava you elevate 3 kelipos ha'tmei'os but you can't do it l'chatchile

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If a ben Noach eats food that is treif for a Jew and uses it to keep his mitzvos then he is elevating it

he elevates it to kelipas noga (not to kedusha)

Mandy

Tue, Feb 21 2006, 7:52 pm

Well, it's too bad then, I guess. Sad, you know, cause I sort of thought that there was a version of the Tanya that may be more palatable. Oh well, Motek, thanks for bursting my bubble, yet again.

Motek

Tue, Feb 21 2006, 8:35 pm

Mandy wrote:

cause I sort of thought that there was a version of the Tanya that may be more palatable.

nah, you didn't reeeeally think so ... you smelled a rat ...

and do you really want a bubble or the emes Question

Motek

Sun, Jun 17 2007, 4:05 pm

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Ha'Yom Yom 29 Elul

An aphorism of the Alter Rebbe: "We have absolutely no conception how precious to G-d is the body of a Jew."

We say the bracha, "Boruch ... asher bochar banu mikol ho'amim ..." (Hashem chose us from all the nations) and Chasidus explains that G-d's choosing was in that which we are the SAME as all other people, in our bodies.

amother

Sun, Jun 17 2007, 4:10 pm

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At the present time, she is one of the advisors on this site. Perhaps you can pm her and have a lengthier chat.

Ruchel

Sun, Jun 17 2007, 4:16 pm

I had a doctor who wrote in her files if the patient was Jewish, Muslim, Russian... whatever. she said it made a difference but didn't explain.

Motek

Sun, Jun 17 2007, 4:55 pm

amother wrote:

At the present time, she is one of the advisors on this site. Perhaps you can pm her and have a lengthier chat.

that you posting mandy?

why would I want to have a chat with her? I'll assume you misquoted her.

Ruchel

Sun, Jun 17 2007, 4:59 pm

mandy has been banned. no?

amother

Sun, Jun 17 2007, 5:05 pm

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why would I want to have a chat with her? I'll assume you misquoted her

Well, wouldn't it be terrible if one of the advisors on this site was misquoted in such an egregious way? Wouldn't you want her to clarify exactly what she means on this topic?

Motek

Sun, Jun 17 2007, 5:12 pm

If you thought so, you didn't need to say it was one of the advisors on this site Rolling Eyes

Nah, I'll just assume mandy was being ... mandy.

Ruchel

Sun, Jun 17 2007, 5:15 pm

huh?

chen

Mon, Jun 18 2007, 2:36 pm

Ruchel wrote:

I had a doctor who wrote in her files if the patient was Jewish, Muslim, Russian... whatever. she said it made a difference but didn't explain.

It would give her a clue as to lifestyle, dietary habits, predisposition to genetic and non-genetic disorders, and, if she's very well-educated, treatments or advice that would or would not be acceptable.

For example, Russians have very high incidence of fetal alcohol syndrome, Seventh-day Adventists are vegetarian and neither drink nor smoke, Orthodox Jews will not take dietary supplements made from pork or shellfish, Ashkenazik Jews are prone to diabetes, Africans to sickle-cell anemia...

JRKmommy

Mon, Jun 18 2007, 7:00 pm

chen wrote:

Ruchel wrote:

I had a doctor who wrote in her files if the patient was Jewish, Muslim, Russian... whatever. she said it made a difference but didn't explain.

Exactly. Genetics and lifestyle can make a difference. Also, different groups sometimes have different ways of relating to doctors and health issues. For example, some of very stoic, and will never complain. Others will be incredibly dramatic about minor issues. Some may come from countries where you need to make noise or have connections to get proper care. Some may have religious objections to medical care in general, or specific forms of medical care. Some may come from cultures where children always speak for older parents, or husbands speak for their wives. You get the idea.

To get back to the original idea - it is the Jewish SOUL which is unique. While certain genes may be more common due to the smaller size of the gene pool, there is no magic gene that makes one Jewish. The body is merely the shell which contains the soul.