Clutter: Israelis vs. others

freidasima

Wed, Aug 27 2008, 2:41 pm

I don't know if it is a cultural thing or a space thing, but when we lived in america we never had any clutter because my grandmother ran the household and she was very neat.

My mother who lives in EY for over 30 years is a pack rat and never throws out anything. Her apartment is totally cluttered with newspapers of the past six months, and other such things. She never throws out a rubber band because you might need it. Every surface is covered with something and to eat at the dining room table you have to put the books on the sofa. She loves it that way and when she was ill and I got rid of a bunch of old records (she hasn't had a working record player for fifteen years), she still can't forgive me for it. When I asked what she would have done with the records her answer was that you never know when you will need them.

She barely has room to move in the house as Israeli homes don't have storage space. But she won't part with her things.
My rumanian great aunt who moved to EY in 1949 is the same by the way, it doesn't have anything to do with being american, just a belief that nothing should ever be thrown out no matter what. Everything might have a use one day according to these people. Doesn't make a difference if you don't have room, there is always room to put it in a cardboard box from the supermarket and stack the box in a corner of the living room. What the corner is full with boxes? So put them under the dining room table, in the bathtub (you can take them out each time) etc.

It's personality I think....

mandksima

Wed, Aug 27 2008, 2:55 pm

freidasima wrote:

I understand that it is a mentality but there are gemachim for almost anything and I would think it is so much better to give things away to those that will use things right away and then borrow yourself if you need to. Rubber bands are great, I collect them too but boxes in the bathtub, ugh! I save a lot of bits and pieces, mind you, but I use them all the time and they're organized (somewhat.) Well, my DH doesn't think so but that's another thread.

There is a certain coziness with a cluttered place but I assume these are not the same women who are always cleaning and you could eat off their floors. How do you clean around clutter? I guess sponja is out. So, then can I assume Moroccon or Yemenite women don't like clutter? Is it an Eastern european thing? There were poor people everywhere, so it can't be only about the money.

freidasima

Wed, Aug 27 2008, 4:19 pm

My mother, bless her, is a depression baby, meaning she grew up very poor and when she finally had she still lives in total fear of losing everything. I gave up on her with this years ago, used to fight with her and when my father a"h was alive, he kept things a bit more in order, but he, too, being a survivor hated to throw out anything...he drew the lines at rubber bands though etc. But my mother...well I love her the way she is and her filipinit does sponja and tries to get rid of things when she isn't looking....but it doesn't work too well...oh well...

Marion

Wed, Aug 27 2008, 5:04 pm

chaylizi wrote:

my cousins in E"Y have/had space in a machsan for storage. there isn't ANY storage space at all?

totally unrelated- I could totally offer board to a yemenite or moroccan woman just now. I am such a very disorganized american. I think I have too many books or papers or baby clothes. anyway- it's too much something. I'm starting a store on ebay to sell off my stuff. maybe I'll call it chaylizi's stuff. catchy, no?

Not all apartments have a machsan. We're lucky and have 2. One is our laundry room/mirpeset sherut, and has my bike, the double stroller, and a cupboard full of all my cake tins and baking equipment. The 2nd is not attached to the house; in it we store our sukkah, luggage, baby clothes/equipment that is not currently in use, Pesach dishes, and out of season clothes. It also holds our broken stereo (we haven't gotten rid of it yet because I think there's a CD stuck inside) and the last of my Tupperware stock that I am trying desperately to get rid of.

In the house, we have virtually no storage space.

ora_43

Wed, Aug 27 2008, 6:11 pm

chaylizi wrote:

my cousins in E"Y have/had space in a machsan for storage. there isn't ANY storage space at all?

A lot of the more recently built apartment complexes have a storage space under the building for each housing unit. We don't have one, but we do have a boidem, which is like Tamiri described. That's where we keep the sukka and a few other things. We also have space inside our beds, which is something I don't think they have in America. Basically, there's no space under the bed, but the top of the bed pops up and you have a space inside about as big as a small closet. That we use for winter clothes, things that are too small or big for me (depending where I am in the pregnant-overweight-normal weight-pregnant cycle), and things that we don't need now but will need later. Also pesach dishes. Many people I've met have beds like these, it's a great way to add storage space. We also put stuff on top of the kitchen cabinets, in stackable baskets in the kitchen, and on the shelves that dh puts up (he would love to have shelves everywhere).

So there isn't so much built-in storage space like in the states, but it's easy to make your own space. It isn't usually enough space to accumulate unnecessary things, but it's enough to keep kids clothes, out of season stuff, and other things that it's worthwhile to save.

Marion

Thu, Aug 28 2008, 4:49 am

ora_43 wrote:

chaylizi wrote:

my cousins in E"Y have/had space in a machsan for storage. there isn't ANY storage space at all?

Many people I've met have beds like these, it's a great way to add storage space. We also put stuff on top of the kitchen cabinets, in stackable baskets in the kitchen, and on the shelves that dh puts up (he would love to have shelves everywhere).

Oh yes, under the bed. That's where we store the sheets & towels for each person. No linen closet (I'd prefer one, but nowhere to put it).

I have a few large items (Pesach pot & toaster oven) on top of my kitchen cabinets, but I hate using that space. It makes my kitchen feel more cluttered than it already is.

Tamiri

Thu, Aug 28 2008, 1:33 pm

Motek wrote:

Tamiri wrote:

Piles of books, magazines, papers to be read make the house look smart.
Tons of toys all over the house make the kids look well tended to.
Pantries and freezers full of food, some of which will expire before you use it make you feel wealthy

Are you saying those are the reasons people have piles of books, lots of toys and stocked pantries and freezers?

If so, I think that's way off base.

What's your opinion?

Motek

Thu, Aug 28 2008, 2:59 pm

Piles of books, magazines, papers to be read - because the people of the house love to read and are often in the middle of many things at once

Tons of toys all over the house - because parents are often clueless about how to buy toys, how many to buy, how to run a house, how to raise children

Pantries and freezers full of food -

pantries - so they are well-stocked and don't have to run out to the store every time they need an item
freezers - because they are well-organized

Nechama Greisman's "Secrets from my Freezer":

Quote:

When I came to Israel fifteen years ago [in the 1970's], I discovered that most Israelis used their freezers only to store raw chickens and fish. Being young and American, I set out to change the situation. Over the years, I have acquired a reputation here for being a freezer-nut. I simply and firmly believe that freezers are one of the greatest appliances ever invented and that Hashem created them so that Lubavitcher women like myself can have large families, teach, go on mivtzoim and still have lots of orchim and serve their own children hot, nutritious, home-cooked meals.

http://www.sichosinenglish.org.....8.htm

Tamiri

Thu, Aug 28 2008, 3:06 pm

In theory, Motek, what you write is great. However, do you have any clue how many people I have come across who don't have any idea what is in the freezer and pantry and basement and food cupboards and yet they keep buying and buying?
It's much easier to know exactly what you have. That means having a controllable amount of stuff in the larder and freezer.
I've tried it both ways. I think I actually save by buying just what I need. (I enter everything in the computer and can take out reports on spending whenever I want). This is how it works for me here in Israel. In the States there was more leeway because things went on sale more often and with more regularity.

mamacita

Thu, Aug 28 2008, 3:37 pm

We have no machsan/storage, now built in closets. Unfortunately that means lots of clutter.

I bought an under the sink cupboard for the bathroom and there are still piles of all kinds of odds n ends everywhere. My Brit MIL tried to be helpful and moved it all out to tidy up, but we use it all, so I moved it all back in. I realized she has a closet in her bathroom chock full of things so with the close of a door her bathroom is tidy, but we don't have that.

freidasima

Fri, Aug 29 2008, 5:00 am

in theory Motek it sounds great, but most Israeli fridges have a small freezer and if you are feeding a family of eight let's say, you need to use almost all the space for six chickens, ice cubes, and maybe a box of ice cream. That's the size of the freezer.

Now on the other hand, if you can afford a standing freezer that's great. But most people in EY don't have the money or the room, particularly if they have a big family, it's a great luxury and costs as much as a fridge! So the advice is nice, but in a kitchen that barely has room for a stove and a fridge (let's not even mention a dishwasher) and the microwave is out on the laundry mirpeset (terrace), you can forget about putting a standing freezer somewhere.

Most frum Israelis with large families do NOT live in a house but an apartment, and usually a small one at that.

Marion

Fri, Aug 29 2008, 6:24 am

Motek wrote:

Tons of toys all over the house - because parents are often clueless about how to buy toys, how many to buy, how to run a house, how to raise children

How about because the parents don't actually buy ANY toys, but the well meaning friends and relatives who do, fail to ask the parents what the kids already have. Or because the kids are blessed with so many well meaning friends and relatives that the parents can't keep up with what's being bought. Or because so many people mean well that they buy "toys for them to grow into" so that the parents shouldn't have to.

I can count on the fingers of both hands how many toys I've bought for my sons (including those which have been bought by other people but that I physically picked out). However, I'd need at least 4 people's hands and feet to count the number of toys they actually own.

mandksima

Fri, Aug 29 2008, 9:32 am

We have a second freezer in a bedroom upstairs as we don't have room for it downstairs (we have a small house.) It is always getting emptied and refilled. I still can't buy too much in bulk because it is pretty small compared to the American one we had before coming here. Pantry space can fit a little bulk buying but it is usually limited to things I don't want to run out of like toilet paper, napkins, tissues and paper towels. It is not so much cheaper as it is more conveinent.

Even though it is roomier here than an Yerushalim apartment, we still struggle for proper spaces for things. The kids keep 2 big Rubbermaid bins with covers in the living room with all their toys and everyday the toys come out and are strewn all over the floor and every evening the toys go back in. Everyday the markers and paper comes onto the dining room table and stays there most of the day and by dinner it gets returned to it's cabinet.

There's no playroom of course, so the kids take over the house for half the day. At least the house looks lived in. Their rooms have toys too but they can't play there all day - it is too hot and I can't keep an eye on them there when they start fighting. I like them in the kitchen and LR/DR area.

Our house is really overstuffed as our furniture is too big and we really have too many pieces. I couldn't bear to part with antique pieces and cabinets for storage. We had such a HUGE yard sale before we made aliyah, that stuff could have filled up an entire israeli apartment. So, compared to how we used to live, this is spartan living but compared to an Israeli, we have way too much stuff! I'm always trying to organize better but it means investing in good storage solutions, putting up shelves, etc. Soon, soon, soon.

I just intalled a knife rack and was able to get 2 knife blocks off of the counter - that was great! Good until my youngest starts to climb...