why some people donâ€™t hold from Kiruv

Log in / Sign Up

List of Forums + New Post Recipe Box Usergroups Following My Posts Bookmarks

Private Messages Advanced Search Rules New User Guide FAQ Advertise Contact Us

Forum -> Interesting Discussions

Why some people donâ€™t hold from Kiruv

1 2 Next

View latest: 24h 48h 72h

ShakleeMom

Fri, Sep 26 2008, 9:40 am

This is a spin-off on the thread about my friend who lost her frumkeit. I just spoke to someone and she is very chassidish. I was telling her about this friend etc. and I told her, “you know I keep up with her yadayada, I think it’s the right thing to do etc.” and this is what she said:

“As long as it doesn’t bring you down in the interim…”

So I get it now. The whole disconnection that families do when someone is weakened at the roots, the disowning, it’s all because THEY are in secure. THEY are afraid that they will be dragged along. They are not strong enough in their frumkeit either and are afraid to be shaken.

Bringing a hippie to the Shabbos table can do that to them?!

I am angry, horrified, shaken.

DefyGravity

Fri, Sep 26 2008, 9:43 am

I've never really understood the phrase, "I don't hold by this (or from this)." Grammatically, it makes no sense whatsoever.

Shouldn't the title just be "Why the ultra's don't do Kiruv"?

flowerpower

Fri, Sep 26 2008, 9:43 am

Hello! That is not true. There are many ultras that are very into kiruv. Please do not generalize. I know a nice amount of families that had kids off the derech living in thier house and was brought back to yiddishkiet in loving way.

sunshine!

Fri, Sep 26 2008, 9:45 am

I think you are making a very general statement about a very specific conversation you had with a specific person. I don't believe that even in the "ultra" circles, people don't do Kiruv because it will pull them down. I think that growing up insular does not provide "ultra orthodox people" the opportunities for kiruv that are more readily available to people who grow up in a more permissive society.

ShakleeMom

Fri, Sep 26 2008, 9:48 am

sunshine! wrote:

I think that growing up insular does not provide "ultra orthodox people" the opportunities for kiruv that are more readily available to people who grow up in a more permissive society.

Granted, great point. But then again, when they are approached with a situation, they shy away for lack of training. They have no idea how to approach it, and prefer to run than to embrace the situation. Something’s gotta give, I could just cry.

ShakleeMom

Fri, Sep 26 2008, 9:49 am

DefyGravity wrote:

I've never really understood the phrase, "I don't hold by this (or from this)." Grammatically, it makes no sense whatsoever.

Shouldn't the title just be "Why the ultra's don't do Kiruv"?

I’m in a rotten mood right now, I don’t need a grammar edit, I need help understanding my anger. Thanks.

sunshine!

Fri, Sep 26 2008, 10:00 am

There are lots of people that shy away from Kiruv, simply because they feel they don't have the "tools" to help be mekarev a person, and it is not just by the ultra orthodox. A while ago, both my husband and I watched the "Inspired" videos, and felt inspired to reach out. My husband voiced his concern that he felt he was not capable of transmitting the beauty of Yiddishkeit to someone unaffiliated, because the more he thought about it, the more it seemed like a bunch of archaic rules. Granted, we know that Yiddishkeit is so much more than that, but how is someone who never knew what it meant to be a jew supposed to view it. After a long talk with Partners in Torah, my husband got the boost of confidence he needed to become involved. Kiruv is not about brainwashing people to see it "your way", it's aout being natural and sincere, the emphasis being the experience as opposed to the rules. Oftentime we ourselves, who identify as frum jews get burned out from the "rules" and fail to appreciate the experiences. How can we transmit it to others if we ourselves are burned out? Instead of cracking a sefer and getting "lomdish" in Kiruv, show someone unaffiliated a Simchas Torah, a Yom Hadin, a shabbos. How beautiful and spiritual that is!

greenfire

Fri, Sep 26 2008, 10:07 am

nah - I agree with shak ... there are plenty who are in denial and are afraid ...

sky

Fri, Sep 26 2008, 10:10 am

I don't know if this will help with the anger but here's a story I find sums up some issues so well:

I went to a seminary that was on the same campus as a kiruv seminary. Once the principal was telling a story about how a father called concerned if he should send his daughter - "because the other girls are walking around in pants, ect. and maybe it will influence her". So the principal answered: "We'll try to make sure your daughter does not become a Baalas Teshuva"

DefyGravity

Fri, Sep 26 2008, 10:10 am

ShakleeMom wrote:

I thinking you're mixing up several points and making huge generalizations.

Your friend does have a right to be concerned that being friends with a person that's OTD might bring you down. This is a big concern for people in kiruv. Sometimes the lines are blurred and people start hanging out in venues they wouldn't normally grace - in the name of kiruv - and it can bring them down.

How many people do you know that disown relatives that are no longer frum? I don't know anyone like this. Oftentimes there's tension because it's very difficult to see a son or daughter throw away a lifestyle that is so important, and it's hard to deal with the situation, but I don't think that so many people actually disown their sons/daughters for this.

Also, there's nothing wrong with people that don't want to actively go out and do kiruv. Many feel that you should be knowledgable and know how to answer questions, etc. and if you don't have the tools, don't do it.

If these people got a call from a friend about hosting a non-frum person for a shabbos meal, would they actually say no? Most likely, they aren't hosting non-frum people because the opportunity doesn't present itself. When you live in an insular frum community, you're not going to have many non-orthodox people at your table unless you're actually in the kiruv field.

happyone

Fri, Sep 26 2008, 10:20 am

The "they" you refer to is very general. I know MANY ultra ultra__________ people that are doing so much for Kiruv. BTW what's the ultra you are referring to?

Specific people in every walk of life cannot and will not deal with Kiruv. Everyone has strengths in different areas. There's someone I know that wouldn't visit her dying mother in the hospital because "she couldn't" is that selfish or "not holding from" Kibud av v'am or Bikur Cholim? That same person has an open house to every hippie, stray, and non-religous person including drug addicts, alcoholics and real "street kids". Her strenth is in kiruv....

And yes, there are those that do feel that bringing non-religious people to their home would have a negative influence on their children/spouse whatever.... I wouldn't judge that or blame it on their "ultra" status. There has been a situation years back in our community where a wonderful family always had guest over for shabbos, yom tov, suppers etc... The father was a wonderful person and very well known in the kiruv world. Unfortunately, his daughter fell in love with one of the guys that frequented their table. She ended up running away, left yiddishkeit and ended up a harlot.

My children have been thought that these non-frum guest are unfortunate not to have the lifestyle we lead and by us setting a good example at the Shabbos table, they might be tempted to raise such families of their own.

I get upset when individual behaviors get grouped as a general population, group, sect or whatever.

Last edited by happyone on Fri, Sep 26 2008, 11:23 am; edited 1 time in total

greentiger

Fri, Sep 26 2008, 10:24 am

I also find the title very offensive. I don't know what you consider "ultras" but we are pretty charedi with a chassidish leaning, and my husband has been spending the past year learning how to be mekarev. Yes, he comes home past 11 many nights for KIRUV. He has a talmid we often invite to our home that he is MEKAREV. Now just becuase your friend said something that rubbed you the wrong way, you are telling me we don't "hold of" kiruv.

Thanks.

flowerpower

Fri, Sep 26 2008, 10:25 am

My friend teaches in a kiruv school. She made a shabbaton for the class and was looking for sleeping and eating arrangements for the girls. There were so many people in the neighborhood that offered to host them for shabbos. I myself had four girls and we had a great experience-specially at the shabbos table.

DefyGravity

Fri, Sep 26 2008, 10:27 am

I work in the kiruv field and know people that are involved come from across the spectrum.

Ruchel

Fri, Sep 26 2008, 10:39 am

The main kiruv in France is done by Chabad and Litvish orgs. So... ultra.

Motek

Fri, Sep 26 2008, 11:19 am

DefyGravity wrote:

I've never really understood the phrase, "I don't hold by this (or from this)." Grammatically, it makes no sense whatsoever.

It's a translation from the Yiddish.

I agree with those who wrote that many so called ultra-Orthodox do kiruv, that fear of being affected is justified, etc.

The Taubenfelds come to mind. Mrs. T. and her baby were murdered on the #2 bus in Israel. She was from New Square, as 'ultra' as can be, and she and her husband hosted dozens of "outsiders". There are plenty like them.

ShakleeMom

Fri, Sep 26 2008, 1:21 pm

Motek, I’m not sure if you changed the title or not… I appreciate that you went the extra mile to offend less people. Perhaps you can change it to ‘why some people won’t participate in Kiruv”, at least it will appeal to the grammar policewomen.

No, I have not calmed down yet.

greentiger

Sat, Sep 27 2008, 8:28 pm

I am sorry you are having such a hard time accepting this.

Did you ever wonder why Avraham Avinu who travelled the world to spread the knowledge of Hashem had a son who didn't "do kiruv"? Maybe go check the meforshim on that before you judge people...

amother

Sat, Sep 27 2008, 10:06 pm

I am very confused. As a Partners in Torah employee, I see loads and loads of ultra people actively involved in Kiruv on an incredible level firsthand. True, they may not be the majority, but they are part of a pretty big number that make up a large part of the ultra whatever you want to call it community at large. Just which ultras are you referring to?

HooRYou

Sun, Sep 28 2008, 2:54 am

It is a complicated issue. Everyone is affected by their environment and the people around them (it is a mefurrahsa Rambam if you want a source, but life proves it anyway), but not all kiruv is the same and leads to the same amount of exposure. I think we can all agree that there is a clear difference in exposure between a family who lives on an isolated college campus and someone who does one hour a week onthe phone as Partners in Torah. There are also differences in how much different people would be affected by those around them. DH's Rosh Yeshiva used to ask the gys thinking of going into kiruv if they were sure that they wouldn't be the ones mikareved? Or their families. I used to work with someone whose wife was noticably less shtark than the rest of her family. I asked him why and he said that growing up as a kiruv family was very hard on his wife and she couldn't keep her family's derech. She is still frum, but was obviously affected by her environment.

I don't think these differences are based on sphere of orthodoxy though but rather personality. There are lots of the chassidishe/chareidi types out there doing front line kiruv in all kinds of places, sent by their Robbonim and supported by their communities (not to mention Chabad but there are in a class by themselves when it comes to kiruv Thumbs Up

). These are each individuals though since every single Jew's role in klal Yisorel is totally different.

Page 1 of 2

1 2 Next