NYers! Can someone explain?!? (a vent)

GAMZu

Mon, Sep 29 2008, 12:52 pm

Quote:

She did tell me "what kind of a mother could you be for arguing about such stupidities in front of the kids? Is that what you want them to learn?"

It's your responsibility to teach your kids right from wrong. And when they see people acting wrong, you should explain!

I was once "attacked" by a man behind me in line because I was looking at the chocolates by the register while waiting. Rolling Eyes

He screamed at me that if I'm not finished shopping, I shouldn't get in line.

Another time I was told off by some lady that I had my baby in the stroller while shopping. I was putting the groceries in the stroller, so I asked her if she'd rather I remove the baby from the stroller, park it inside the store, and walk around with a shopping cart that is 50% bigger than the stroller. Mad

Fox

Mon, Sep 29 2008, 2:24 pm

For several years while my husband was setting up his business, he literally commuted to NY for the week, leaving on Sunday evening and returning to Chicago on Friday morning. Of course, many people couldn't understand why we didn't simply move. We actually "lived" in NY for up to a month at a time with our kids during vacations, etc., but we discontinued that practice.

This is not meant as a "bash NY" remark. There are scores of lovely, erlich people in each of the boroughs and neighborhoods. The amount of chesed is amazing, and the institutions that have developed (e.g., Hatzolah) to solve communal problems are both instructive and inspirational for the rest of us.

Unfortunately, NYers must live with very little space -- homes and apartments are comparatively small, parks and green spaces are few and far between, and simple human congestion wears away at people's finer instincts. I am quite sure that I, too, in such an environment, would become much more aggressive and in-your-face.

I understand that people can't simply up and move -- there are job and family considerations, etc., and if you're chassidic, there's the matter of remaining with your community. However, I've met so many people who don't know that any other way of life exists, and I always find that so sad. Of course, there are rude people everywhere, but the percentage of unpleasant encounters is just simply higher in NY than most other parts of the U.S. There is almost a sense that "the best defense is a good offense" -- people seem so worried about being taken advantage of or having their rights abused in some other way that they are almost always bristling, ready for combat.

Now, I can understand someone saying, "Look, we feel that the advantages of living in NY outweigh the danger of becoming coarsened to less refined behavior in public." For many people, I might even agree. But when people claim that, "Oh, it's the same everywhere -- you just had a bad experience!" I have to laugh (at least privately). No, it's not the same everywhere. There is a more open, temimisdike quality to much of the rest of the U.S. that is simply not present in NY.

I'll second Mama Bear's comments, though: I've never lived in Willi, but I've always witnessed very nice behavior on the part of everyone!

Clarissa

Mon, Sep 29 2008, 2:32 pm

I find New Yorkers more funny and interesting than people in many parts of the country. I'm willing to sacrifice the possibility of greater politeness (which isn't guaranteed in other parts of the country) for the amusement and fascination I have with people in this neck of the woods. I traveled for many years and never had a longing to settle down in most of the places I visited. Also, I don't know about coarseness, but maybe people here do let it all out. On the other hand, some of the beneath-the-surface stuff that happens elsewhere (restricted clubs, narrow-mindedness) isn't any more appealing to me than the on-the-surface emoting I experience here.

My friends who moved to the suburbs and got all of the space they wanted didn't find them any friendlier, by and large, than the city. Not necessarily worse, but not better.

Fox

Mon, Sep 29 2008, 2:41 pm

Clarissa wrote:

I'm willing to sacrifice the possibility of greater politeness

I think this is the key difference -- to non-NYers, superficial politeness and the tone of routine transactions are much more important to the quality of life. Someone barks at us in line and we feel a bit violated. This value is neither right nor wrong, but it is so ingrained that people feel really strongly about it and it causes a lot of friction when we try to integrate.

Clarissa

Mon, Sep 29 2008, 2:46 pm

I hate being barked at. I posted my response to someone who barked at me at the cheese counter. I'm polite when I'm out and about, I always say thank you and please and excuse me, and I do my best not to annoy others. I find many New Yorkers equally considerate, and I don't like rudeness at all. That said, my point was that I don't think that people are necessarily more kind and considerate in other parts of the country, even though there may be fewer outward displays of negative feelings.

Fox

Mon, Sep 29 2008, 2:55 pm

Clarissa wrote:

That said, my point was that I don't think that people are necessarily more kind and considerate in other parts of the country, even though there may be fewer outward displays of negative feelings.

Right -- I got that. But people outside NY and the Northeast in general put a lot more value and emphasis on not displaying negative feelings and even projecting positive ones they may not truly feel. To a NYer (and obviously I'm using the broadest stereotype brush imaginable), the concept of "politeness" is not necessarily part and parcel of kindness and consideration. To people in other parts of the country, to varying degrees, it is. In fact, brusque verbal exchanges combined with acts of consideration almost create a kind of cognitive dissonance for Southerners and Midwesterners, in particular. We just get completely confused!

Fox

Thu, Oct 02 2008, 10:30 am

ShakleeMom wrote:

My friend moved to Israel this year and she says it is brutal. She says she can’t pay for a bag (aka bottle) of milk without getting into a scuffle!

This is the single biggest reason why I feel I can't move to EY, and I know at least a handful of people who have returned to the U.S. because of this. Again, there are obviously factors in the environment that exacerbate the problem -- try living in a state of war for 60 years! Still, people have widely divergent reactions to such an aggressive environment. Some people can say, "Oh, just get over it." Others find it really diminishes their quality of life.

lubaussie

Sun, Oct 12 2008, 5:30 am

Crayon210 wrote:

How do you justify this? You do an entire grocery shopping this way?

I don't do it, and the thing doesn't particularly bother me, but if I did do it, I would justify it by saying -you can do it too! Anyone can! And the fairness is that whoever comes first, get to come first, whether it's their basket at the front of the line or themselves in person. If you don't have any partner-in-crime to 'wait in line' for you, then come earlier, finish your shopping and get in line first anyway. I don't see the big deal. Again, it doesn't particularly bother me, so I'm probably not the best judge.

baschabad

Sun, Oct 12 2008, 6:15 am

I agree with first come first serve... once you've done your shopping!!! I try not to live looking for ways to inconvenience others in order to convenience myself...

On a different note, it was erev rosh hashana at The Shuk in Crown Heights, and right behind my very full shopping cart on line to pay was a non-Jewish lady with half a watermelon. (She probably didn't realize that it wasn't a very good time to be shopping at a predominantly Jewish store!) The person in front of me finished up, so I just gestured at her to go ahead of me. She took about three seconds to pay, but what shocked me was how she hadn't even thought to ask me to go first, nor did it seem that she'd be concerned if I made her wait the time for me to unload and pay!

Where I come from, it would be impolite if you didn't notice or let someone with less stuff go before you, nor would you just shrug it off if someone didn't let you go first!

Raisin

Sun, Oct 12 2008, 6:23 am

baschabad wrote:

in most supermarkets here, there are checkouts for 10 items or less.

Fox

Sun, Oct 12 2008, 7:19 pm

baschabad wrote:

Where I come from, it would be impolite if you didn't notice or let someone with less stuff go before you,

IMHO, this is the cheapest, easiest kiddush Hashem available. I always try to let people go ahead of me when I'm doing a major shopping even if there's an express line they could have selected. I've had many experiences where non-Jews said something complimentary about Jews in general after being asked to go ahead, including one instance in which an Asian woman wearing a cross admired my children at great length, repeatedly clucking about how fortunate I'd been to "have Jewish children because everyone knows they are the best!" We always laugh about it because she made it sound as if I'd simply been especially lucky in an anonymous lottery through which babies are apportioned.

Sun, Oct 12 2008, 7:35 pm

Fox wrote:

baschabad wrote:

Where I come from, it would be impolite if you didn't notice or let someone with less stuff go before you,

IMHO, this is the cheapest, easiest kiddush Hashem available. I always try to let people go ahead of me when I'm doing a major shopping even if there's an express line they could have selected.

I agree with the above poster 100%
BUT
Only if you are the only one in line or at the back of the line.
I have been at the back of the line and everyone in the back of the line was mighty peeved when a person further up the line allowed someone to cut because they were not in a rush- but the people stuck behind were held up which was unfair because it was not their choice. Just make sure that your good deed to one does not adversely affect others.

Fox

Sun, Oct 12 2008, 7:48 pm

JC wrote:

I have been at the back of the line and everyone in the back of the line was mighty peeved when a person further up the line allowed someone to cut because they were not in a rush- but the people stuck behind were held up which was unfair because it was not their choice. Just make sure that your good deed to one does not adversely affect others.

This isn't what I'm talking about. This is obviously a no-no. I'm talking about merely exchanging places in line, not allowing a new party to cut in line.