Please Help Me......On Being proud & happy to be frum

ElTam

Sun, Jan 15 2006, 7:55 pm

imale, I liked a lot of what you have to say, but I think your attitude is very condescending and your understanding of the inner lives of non-frum women is very shallow.

I did not marry until I was 31. It took me a long time to find my bashert, and not for lack of trying. In those years, yes, I spent a lot of time on my career and a lot of narishkeit, but I also cultivated deep friendships and did a lot of tzedakah work I don't have the koach for any more with a husband and a family.

My DH and I because frum together, starting a few months after our wedding. I have to say that if someone had come to me with the attitude you showed here, they would not have had very good luck being mekarev us. Instead, we connected people who showed respect for us, but also showed us, through word and through example, how being frum Yidden could make the best of our lives even better while boiling away many of the the impurities of life out in the world.

I don't mean to be harsh, but your words were very hurtful to me and I think very derogatory toward Yidden who didn't have the good fortune to grow up in a frum home.

imale

Mon, Jan 16 2006, 7:08 am

Eitam, I truly am sorry you were offended by what I had to say. Let me Clarify..... From your name I assume you have some connection to Israel or Israeli's , ....when I was in Seminary in Israel I had a sort of culture shock. I couldn't believe how the non frum Israeli's view the frum ones. They were stereotyped as being dirty, dishonest and close minded
(among many other things). Yes the news and "religious" politicians were a big cause of this attitude but I still felt personally offended that anyone thought of me in that way, well when I moved to Israel after I got married
(and believe me it was the last place I thought I'd end up in) I decided to do everything in my power to change that stigma, at least to the people in my community. Of course I'm not generalizing that all attractive career women are vain and shallow, on the contrary I greatly admire their ambition and am amazed sometimes by the important position a 28 yr old holds. And as I mentioned before,living here for some time already I've grown very close to many woman/girls like that- however I did want to stress the point that what they look like on the outside doesn't always necessarily reflect what's going on inside . To a frum girl who is dying to be like that , it can look like they have it all, when in reality they are very much human suffering from many of the same doubts mentioned above just related more to their lifestyles.
Please don't take this as a personal insult , I truly respect and appreciate these women and from the positive attitude they have towards me I can tell they feel my affection for them is genuine.
(By the way hosting a bi weekly tanya/ relationships class in my house for 20 of these women makes us a lot closer to eachother, and enables us to understand the seemingly shallow aspects of our lives in a more intellectual way)

reflect what they are feeling inside

Motek

Thu, Jan 26 2006, 12:21 pm

amother wrote:

Original amother here-
For the question on What's wrong with being MO? That's my question too. If they keep the Torah and Mitzvohs and still have much more they can do and enjoy, what could be better? This is a very important question for me to be answered. I wish anybody would know someone who I can speak to about these questions.

amother: I read the following in an article by Rabbi Chaim Ashkenazi (Israeli) and I think it answers your question:

Quote:

Why are people generally not mehader in mitzvos, and why are they not only not mehader but they will even do things just to fulfill their obligation (to be yotzei) or even in a second-rate way (b'dieved), or by relying on a posek who is lenient (meikil), and still feel good about it! Yet, when it comes to material needs such as clothing, the same people are unwilling to make do with something second-rate. The same is true for furniture, a home and food.

And this is certainly true for health concerns. People look for the best doctors and treatments and this approach is taken for granted. Whoever does not act this way (regarding clothes etc.) is not considered quite normal!

The reason is simple. It’s because these material things are needed to live on this earth and what a person feels very strongly that he needs in life. Whatever a person thinks is life is what he invests himself in.

One person may think kavod is life and so he will do anything and everything to increase his personal dignity and honor. Another person thinks control is life and this is what he’ll be busy with. To another person it’s about his appearance, his food and drink or vacations. And if these people learned a bit of Torah and even learned some Chassidus, they use all their knowledge in order to prove how justified they are and will even express surprise if you don’t agree with them.

So what we see from this is that if a person does not do something in the finest possible way, it’s because he doesn’t feel it’s connected with his life and he thinks he can manage without it. In order for a person to do his avodas Hashem in the best possible way, even to the point of hidur and mehadrin min ha’mehadrin, he must feel that this is part of his life and more, that this is his entire life. As it says, “I was not created except to serve my Maker,” and if not for this, there is no purpose in my existence.

amother

Sun, Jan 29 2006, 1:01 am

Thanks Motek. That was really interesting.

Quote:

So what we see from this is that if a person does not do something in the finest possible way, it’s because he doesn’t feel it’s connected with his life and he thinks he can manage without it. In order for a person to do his avodas Hashem in the best possible way, even to the point of hidur and mehadrin min ha’mehadrin, he must feel that this is part of his life and more, that this is his entire life. As it says, “I was not created except to serve my Maker,” and if not for this, there is no purpose in my existence.

I may not be clear-minded right now, but I don't see it answering my question. So what if he doesn't see it as a part of his life??
Also about the 5 levels of keeping mitzvohs. Do the ones on the highest level get more schar?? (I truly hope so LOL why then would somebody want to be on the most mehudar level {and I'm not talking about those that do it just to fulfill Hashem's mitzvos or for Ahavas Hashem-Unfortunately most of us are not on that level})
I'll appreciate your answers alot.

rosehill

Sun, Jan 29 2006, 7:26 pm

Amother,I have been thinking alot about you, and your questions. I admire your honesty and bravery in seeking answers to your questions. I haven't read this whole thread, so forgive me if I am repetitive. Also, so you know my bias, MO people would consider me yeshivish, and yeshivish people would consider me MO. I consider myself to be a Jewess doing her best to do what's right.

That said, yes, we were all given the same Torah. We were all given the 613 non negotiable Mitzvos and the Rabbonim, following specific guidelines, have "added" things along the way to make sure those 613 are safe.

In addition, certain communities have adopted various practices that are more "social" rather than Halachic in nature. Practices that are designed to help an individual be more identified with a particular group, make it harder for them to stray from Yiddishkeit, make it easier for them to uphold the Halacha etc.

As with many things in life, where there are benefits, there is also a price. The risk with adding many social customs, is that if a person becomes overwhelmed with what is expected of them, they may "throw out the baby with the bathwater" and abandon the whole thing.

I don't think that's where you are. I do think, though, that if you had a clearer understanding of what you do that is social, and what you do that is Halachic, it would be easier for you to do both. The reason why "Gadol Metzuveh ve'oseh misheeino metzuveh ve'oseh" (greater is the one who is commanded and does, than one who is not commanded and does) is that when something is COMMANDED, there is a greater Yetzer Hara not to do it. When you understand what is "only" minhag, you may find that the price is worth the benefit.

Try to find someone who can talk to you HONESTLY about this distinction. You may feel free to pm me, and I'll help you if I can.

Motek

Sun, Jan 29 2006, 7:47 pm

rosehill wrote:

When you understand what is "only" minhag, you may find that the price is worth the benefit.

I understand what you're saying rosehill except that I don't think too many things are "social." Minhagim are serious things that are not optional. Maybe you can give an example of something that is social and not obligatory.

amother wrote:

So what if he doesn't see it as a part of his life??

then that indicates that something is amiss and needs attention!

the pasuk says, "ki heim chayeinu" - Torah is our life

If we see other things as being "our life," then that tells us that we are not in tune with Torah which is the blueprint of creation!

Quote:

Also about the 5 levels of keeping mitzvohs. Do the ones on the highest level get more schar?? (I truly hope so LOL why then would somebody want to be on the most mehudar level

Hashem pays you back for every tiny detail of everything you do.

Quote:

{and I'm not talking about those that do it just to fulfill Hashem's mitzvos or for Ahavas Hashem-Unfortunately most of us are not on that level})

don't underestimate others or yourself! have you ever seen a child excitedly, joyously do a mitzva ONLY because it's a mitzva? let's aim for the enthusiasm and level of children in our enthusiasm for mitzvos! Wink

amother

Mon, Jan 30 2006, 12:59 am

Actually Rosehill that was beautiful. I really appreciate everyone's input.

I do have a problem differentiating between what is halacha and what is a minhag. I know that a Minhag is considered like a halachah but what makes a minhag apply to one and not to others?? Minhag Hamokom??Minhag Hamishpachah??? These in itself is confusing. For example in Boro Park you have all different Chassidus, then Litvish and Orthodox, does Minhag Hamokom apply, if yes how?? I am confused so I might be confusing you too. I hope I'm being clear.
I am definitely a little stronger due to some clarifications in your responses. I still need many more but I guess I'm on the way.
I would love to PM with somebody but only if I don't have to show my ID or maybe I can make a new one. Is there anybody who has experience with ahem..kiruv??? Well not exactly kiruv, but explanations, and clarifications and ENCOURAGEMENT. Please let me know. Thanks

rosehill

Mon, Jan 30 2006, 7:03 am

Actually, amother and Motek, I was thinking about that too. This is a question to which I have no idea what the answer is. We know that "Minhag Yisrael Torah hee", but what does it take for a practice to achieve the Halachic threshold as a minhag? DOes it have to have been accepted by a certain percentage of the population. Is it enough for a certain percentage of a particular community? Does it have to have been going on for a certain number of years?
I would venture a guess that much of what we refer to as minhag conversationally, may not necessarily reach that level.
In any case, abandoning minhagim is not a simple thing to do, not socially or halachically. I just think that having a clearer understanding of what's what makes it easier to keep to both.

Mandy

Wed, Feb 08 2006, 6:18 pm

I don't think any of the amothers will take me up on this, but anyway, I have the name and number of a woman who is highly, highly educated in chassidus, in nigleh and has advanced degrees in secular subjects.

She takes all questions seriously, is not dogmatic and narrow-minded, is able to discuss emunah issues without trying to mekarev you. She identifies what your areas of difficulty are and presents rational, logical arguments and hears your arguments in return. It is like a normal discussion. She does not claim to have all the answers and will not fix your problems in one day. But for those who have spoken to her, she is a breath of fresh air. If you ask a good question and she doesn't know the answer, she will research it and get back to you. She will not tell you that you have a problem or that she is worried about you or any such nonsense.

Those who know me can testify that I do not give out haskamas lightly, LOL

pm me for her name if you want.