BECHIRA - FREE CHOICE

sarahd

Tue, Nov 30 2004, 5:10 pm

Are you really asking to know, or are you trying to start a new thread? (just curious).

A mashal on perhaps a childish level: I know that four year old Yossi loves red lollipops and hates green ones. If I offer him a choice between a red and a green lollipop, I know which one he'll take. Does that mean that Yossi doesn't have free choice of which lolly to take?

Hashem knows what our choices will be, but we don't, so we do have free will.

Tefila

Tue, Nov 30 2004, 5:31 pm

Quote:

Are you really asking to know, or are you trying to start a new thread? (just curious).

So fine, now I will answer you with a question... are you really just curious, or.... ?
And no Bechira is Not that simple A few posts later you might find out why Exclamation

Motek

Tue, Nov 30 2004, 6:18 pm

freilich wrote:

Do we really have Bechira, if Hashem knows what we are going to do anyway?

the short answer: yes

the explanation of the short answer: if you were Hashem, you would understand how Hashem can know and we can have free choice!

Tefila

Tue, Nov 30 2004, 6:23 pm

And Motek the long answer Wink

If I told my child you eigther go to bed by yourself or I take you... is that free choice. We are told obey My commandments and your sechar will be great, if not.....
So what does, bechira mean?

sarahd

Tue, Nov 30 2004, 6:29 pm

freilich wrote:

And Motek the long answer Wink

If I told my child you eigther go to bed by yourself or I take you... is that free choice.
We are told obey My commandments and your sechar will be great, if not.....

It must be free choice, because we see there are plenty of people who ignore this warning and do whatever they want.

rydys

Tue, Nov 30 2004, 8:10 pm

When I was young my father gave me a good moshol. I was a big Nancy Drew fan. He said imagine that I, having read the books several times, am re-reading book one. Nancy has to make a choice. I, who have read the book before, am in Hashem's position (kiviyochol). I know what choice Nancy will make. However, to Nancy, within the book, she is really faced with a choice and does not know the outcome.

I think that the basic principle is that we don't understand how we can have bechira while Hashem knows all of history bec. we operate within the laws of teva where these two things are contradictory. We can use mesholim like the one above or others given here to come to some understanding, but at some point we have to accept that there are some things we just cannot understand fully.

hadasa

Sun, Dec 12 2004, 2:04 am

Hashem's knowing what we will choose is not so difficult to understand. It's like the weatherman who knows it will rain tomorrow - but he's not the one who makes it rain (or any of the other Meshalim on this thread).

A much more complicated question is Hashgachah Pratis and Bechirah Chofshis - The fact that everything that happens - Hashem makes it happen. I learnt the answer in Chassidus classes and in the Lubavitcher Rebbe's Sichos, but it never really clicked, until I got married!

That's when I first understood how HP and BC can coexist. Look, while I was going out, I was faced with a choice: do I want to marry this guy or not? I was making my decision based on my own observations. Now I certainly know that forty days before I was born it was announced in heaven that I would marry my husband, that it was Bashert. But at the same time, I chose him, it was my decision.

Ozmom

Sun, Dec 12 2004, 7:24 am

Freilich
if you offer your kid a carrot or a lolly which will they take?

If it were my kid I"m definate they will take the lolly,(not as definate as Hashem but pretty definate)

does that mean that I'm not giving the kid a choice with the offer?

AweSumThenSum

Sun, Dec 12 2004, 9:34 am

How does one explain the fact that one has the power (thru tshuva, tfillah, tzedakah, etc...) to overturn G-d"s plan/decree? I think this takes bechirah to a whole other level. True that Hashem knows the outcome (and He even knows that He planned one thing, but that through our actions we overturned HIs original plan), but if we keep in mind that we have the power to overturn Hashem's decrees, then I think it will empower us to be the best we can be.

Tefila

Mon, Dec 13 2004, 6:05 pm

The best years of your life are the ones in which you decide your problems are your own. You do not blame them on your mother, the ecology or the president. You realize that you control your own destiny with the help of Hashem Wink

Rivka

Wed, Dec 15 2004, 4:06 pm

Bechira is very complicated, but Hashem knows our choice, we do have a choice coz there are two outcomes and Hashem has made both those available, if we did one thing that would happen if we did the other, another thing would happem. Also you choose differently at different stages of your life, your child of 8 might now choose lolly instead of carrot, but imagine when he/she turns a teen and is all self conctious about weight and health, they might actually choose the carrot. If we only had a yetzer Tov then you can say we don't have free choice, we have a yetzer tov and yetzer hora so that is two different sides to us and we have a choice which one we are going to use.

kookykup

Mon, Jul 11 2005, 8:05 am

What a tragedy! What suffering has befallen the free people of ! An attack by the evil muslim extremists on the rights of people who lead lives to build a better world, not destroy it. The world suffers along with England for the senseless, hateful and evil terrorist attack last week.

I would suggest England offer parts of London to the muslims in exchange for peace. Maybe Westminster Abbey? Perhaps, no, surely, this will ensure that such an attack does not occur again anywhere in England. As ridiculous as this sounds, it is even more ridiculous for Israel, who has suffered not one such attack but many many such attacks, to give away parts of its land in order to ensure peace with the palestinian arab murderers.

Let the world know that if they endeavour to keep Israel safe THEY will be safe.

A SAFE ISRAEL IS A SAFE WORLD.

Let United States know that it's in THEIR best interests to have a strong safe Israel. After all Israel is their only true ally and friend in the Middle East.

Let Israel not give away one inch of land. Let Israel not endanger the lives of its citizens. Keep the land and keep the people safe. A SAFE ISRAEL IS A SAFE WORLD.

Rivka

Mon, Jul 11 2005, 12:07 pm

Off topic, there is a topic on the London tragedy.
And what has giving away any bit of Britian got to do with Palestinians??
If you are talking about the IRA and Northern Ireland, then you would make some sense.