Interesting Halachic Paradoxes

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Motek

Sun, Jan 08 2006, 7:14 pm

Two witnesses come and testify that they saw the new moon and therefore today is Rosh Chodesh (ex. Teves).

Two other witnesses come along and say that the first two witnesses couldn't possibly be telling the truth, since they (the 1st pair) were with them (the 2nd pair) and were not looking outside at the time they said they were.

The catch is, these latter two witnesses will be bar mitzva (I.e. eligible to testify) only on Rosh Chodesh Teves!

The paradox is:

IF we believe the first pair of witnesses that today is Rosh Chodesh Teves, THEN the second pair of witnesses ARE bar mitzva and CAN testify against the first pair, in which case it is NOT Rosh Chodesh and if it is not Rosh Chodesh, they are NOT bar mitzva! If they are not bar mitzva, then we WILL believe the first pair of witnesses and THEN the second pair of witnesses ARE bar mitzva Scratching Head

Crayon210

Sun, Jan 08 2006, 7:16 pm

Thanks, I don't have enough taxing my mind right now. Tongue Out

Motek

Sun, Jan 08 2006, 8:13 pm

serious or sarcastic? Wink

Crayon210

Sun, Jan 08 2006, 8:14 pm

Where did you get that from, praytell?

Motek

Sun, Jan 08 2006, 8:31 pm

ready for another one? Idea

Mommy912

Sun, Jan 08 2006, 8:38 pm

Motek, a boy is considered a man at 13 AND ONE DAY.

Crayon210

Sun, Jan 08 2006, 8:54 pm

Go for it!

stem

Sun, Jan 08 2006, 9:21 pm

I find this bordering on apikorsus... Confused

(ok, bash me!)

Crayon210

Sun, Jan 08 2006, 9:38 pm

Stem-how so?

carrot

Sun, Jan 08 2006, 9:39 pm

why, stem?

stem

Sun, Jan 08 2006, 9:56 pm

it's like the question: can Hashem create a rock that is too heavy for Him to lift?

Any way you look at it, it has potential to lessen your emuna. It makes a mockery of Halacha and the validity of the Torah.

Crayon210

Sun, Jan 08 2006, 10:00 pm

I don't think that's true. I think there are these types of things built into the system. What's bein hashemashos all about? It's an undefined time, not day and not night. That drives halacha up a wall in many cases!

If this is what drives someone off the derech, then they have more problems than this, believe you me.

hisorerus

Sun, Jan 08 2006, 10:07 pm

stem wrote:

it's like the question: can Hashem create a rock that is too heavy for Him to lift?

The answer to this question is...
Yes, He can.
But then, He can still lift it.

Crayon210

Sun, Jan 08 2006, 10:11 pm

Of course. :-)

Motek

Tue, Jan 10 2006, 11:45 am

stem wrote:

the paradox I quoted is from the Minchas Chinuch

this is Torah!

though I can understand your concern

I know a 9th grade rebbi who "collects" these in order to have stimulating questions for his class!

Motek

Tue, Jan 10 2006, 1:42 pm

here's another one, this time from Tosfos in Gittin

Reuven divorces his wife on condition that she doesn't marry Shimon. She marries Shimon.

Now, if she married Shimon she violated the condition of her divorce from Reuven, which means she is still married to Reuven! Scratching Head

If she is still married to Reuven, then she couldn't have married Shimon since the kiddushun were not "tofes" (means, the marriage was not halachically valid), and if she wasn't married to Shimon, THEN Reuven's condition WAS fulfilled!

note: if she violated the condition, the get was never a get

mali

Sat, Jan 14 2006, 2:28 pm

Motek, these ideas are very interesting. But, you know, Halacha has a solution for all the things you brought up. For example, once Beis Din has announced that it's Rosh Chodesh, no one can change it. Even if it's a known fact that the Molad really wasn't then, even if Beis Din did it B'meizid. So, those two 13 year olds turn Bar Mitzva, and they are indeed Kosher Eidim, but they can't change the fact that it's Rosh Chodesh. Nature is ruled according to Halacha, and not vice-versa.
Also with the divorce-marriage issue. I want to check that, but I think that there are certain things that can't be made as conditions to a divorce. Not marrying Shimon is probably a condition Shel Shtus, which is not Halachically accepted.
Here's an interesting Halachic issue, which is not necessarily a paradox, but it's still interesting. Sometimes, Beis Din accepts a person's testimony, but only partially. For example: Reuven says he committed a certain sin together with Shimon. Another witness comes and confirms that. So Beis Din will accept the testimony against Shimon, but not against Reuven, because one cannot testify against himself.