Brookyn "manners" | Imamother

Teacup9

Thu, Nov 06 2008, 6:52 am

My guest (not Jewish) from Califorina was visiting and couldn't believe how rude Brooklyners can be. I really began to notice things I'd become immune to. Worst of all it was really the Jewish community and not non jews.

Examples.
We were walking the baby in the stroller and several moms were waiting for the school bus on the sidewalk. No one moved aside and we had to walk in the gutter. My guest asked if I had known the women if they would have moved aside. I realized I did know one of the women and she is VERY nice, but she didn't recognize me (I had on my back up sheital) and I didn't say hi because if I stopped to chat with everyone I know I'd never get anywhere.

Glatt Mart on a Thursday morning. No one moves aside for anyone to shop, no one says "excuse me" in a friendly way, as soon as a path clears someone rushes to fill the space, etc.

Frum women glaring and looking others up and down at the park. No one smiles.

And the driving! So dangerous.

It is such a chillul Hashem. And here we are such a wonderful group of people who give tremendous amounts to charity and perform such mitzvahs, but we can look so selfish and rude doing daily stuff.

bubby

Thu, Nov 06 2008, 7:18 am

Sorry to disappoint you, but it'll never change. Don't blame just Brooklynites though, this is a NY problem. You will get pushed & "abused" as easily in Manhattan as Brooklyn. Maybe not in Staten Island though, there seems to be more space per person there! Smile

As for Jewish "offenders" - the only reason we notice it more is because we expect better from Frum people & when they do it to US...well! Now that's Chutzpah! But it seems to be OK if Frum people are rude to "others". Confused

Teacup9

Thu, Nov 06 2008, 7:22 am

bubby wrote:

But I find non Jews hold the door for me more when I have the stroller.

Where does this sense of entitlement come from?

Tamiri

Thu, Nov 06 2008, 7:58 am

I am a born Brooklynite and quite Jewish and I side with your California guest. We would come in from NJ to gape at the behavior on "The Avenues". Things I can remember: My friend and I with strollers and packages trying to open a door to a store. Along come a few bochurim, open the door for themselves and go in without helping us.
Being nearly run over by those vans and station wagons.
Surly clerks in Jewish stores.

It's horrible. But that's what makes Brooklyn an experience!

happyone

Thu, Nov 06 2008, 8:06 am

You might want to change your topic from Brooklyn manners to New York manners. I'm not from Bklyn, no reason to defend a specific community. But I will tell you that New York in general is more fast paced, and a lot of other things I won't mention here. The minute you leave NY, just over to NJ, the guys at the toll booths will say hello. NJ malls someone will actually hold a door open for you, you won't get that in NY. If you ask directions of someone in NY, you'll get a half hearted wave in another direction as the driver is driving off, while in NJ you might get someone to even escort you to the place you need to go.
It's not a Jewish problem it's a NY problem.

bubby

Thu, Nov 06 2008, 8:10 am

Tamiri, what I do (if I'm quick enough) is to say thank you for holdng the door in a VERY loud voice. Or if I'm going in & they push past to get out I say please wait your turn, I'm an old lady, maybe you could wait a second. Of course, by the time I get to "old" they're already 3 blocks away. Rolling Eyes

My best line is going into my building. I say THANK YOU!!! really loudly when I hold the door for people & they just sail in without a glance. This is a good one, though. Every day I came home from school at about 5:30 & a teenage girl was always waiting in the lobby to pick up her brother from his babysitter. Every day I struggled with my briefcase, pocketbook, papers, writing assignments, & my key. She never once opened the door. She just watched.

Fast forward to the last day of school. I eventually got in with all my junk & I turned to her & said "For a whole year you watched me struggle to get in & you never once opened the door. What's your name? You're a disgrace to your school & your parents who raised you better." She turned so red. September arrived. NO DIFFERENCE!!! shock

Clarissa

Thu, Nov 06 2008, 8:19 am

I haven't been to most of Brooklyn, but I want to say that, although I've certainly encountered rude people, I haven't found Manhattanites, especially those in my neighborhood, to be rude. Most people are considerate, helpful, do say please and thank you, and apologize when they do the wrong thing. Not everyone, of course, but I haven't experienced too many glaringly rude encounters. One time I was on a bus going home, a tourist asked for a restaurant recommendation of a nearby passenger, and the entire bus got involved, telling him about the various neighborhood options. I suspect the guy got off the bus because he couldn't take another suggestion. And I've seen tourists looking at maps, and locals walk up to them and ask if they need help. Naturally, there are some bad apples, or good apples having really bad days, but all in all, I don't find it any more rude than other places I've been.

yo'ma

Thu, Nov 06 2008, 8:42 am

I really can't stand when people say that this neighborhood is rude or this one or etc... I've been living here for a little over 2 years and guess what? It's the same here!! In California, you don't usually have tons of people in one spot or in the streets, except the malls and amusement parks. NY, as well as other big cities have a lot of people and if you're going to go on a crowded street, don't expect people to move so you can go, they want to go also. I'm not saying it's right or the same exact thing as what you're saying, but everyone is the same anywhere. Oh, BTW, this is one of the reasons that I don't like people Wink

Thu, Nov 06 2008, 9:35 am

bubby wrote:

My best line is going into my building. I say THANK YOU!!! really loudly when I hold the door for people & they just sail in without a glance.

I always say "YOU'RE WELCOME" instead... I find it more effective, not a direct rebuke... lets them wonder if they said thank you or not... makes them think without the immediate defensiveness.

I also use that line for my kids... even before they could talk, though with a nicer tone, it was more effective than then telling them to say thank you, just a gentle smile and your welcome.. they come to understand that they were supposed to say thank you.

ShakleeMom

Thu, Nov 06 2008, 10:32 am

In a big city, if you do not look out for yourself, you get trampled. With time, people learn to become defensive and it shows as a lack of manners. I had a guy walk out of a store and not hold the door for me, I was an inch behind him. Needless to say the door slammed into my belly.

flowerpower

Thu, Nov 06 2008, 10:38 am

ShakleeMom wrote:

This is new york and it will never change. It's just the same by the non jews too-believe me-I lived in a very non jewish neighborhood and I've seen it non stop. WE were the nice ones there greeting everyone and helping them out. Many were rude, loud, and would never offer to move-rather bumping into you as if you aren't there, and will never offer to help you with your stroller. If I go on the train in my ninth month noone offers to get up-and the train is full of teenagers after dismissal. You notice it more by the yidden because thirteenth is swimming with them only. I hold the door for people too many times and they forget to say thank you. I nicely tell them your welcome and continue on my way. If poeple are shmoozing taking up the whole street I kindly say excuse me and wait until they move. New york is a place where you just have to stick up for yourself because noone else will.

fleetwood

Thu, Nov 06 2008, 10:43 am

One time I held the door open in a grocery store for a guy going out with his wagon. He of course as is typical did not say thank you. When he lifted his bag his strawberried fell out all over the floor. I felt that that was karma!

GAMZu

Thu, Nov 06 2008, 10:55 am

Bubby, I have had the building thing, too, but to experience it every day? Wow, that's some ill-mannered girl!

I have also had the experience of struggling with kids, stroller, bags, open the door a crack and have a bochur seep through. Or even better, a frum man come up to the store's door right behind me and wait for me to open it. I have begun to step back and allow him to open the door for me.

My favorite is when kids drop their bikes all over the sidewalk. Does no one teach them? I teach my kids not to leave things where they will block the path. And even better when the mothers are out watching me try to get past and continue to shmooze. I say excuse me and then just walk on, my stroller pushing away the various bikes. After I pass, I kick the bikes off the sidewalk for the people who will need to pass next.

Once I was walking and 2 ladies with DOUBLE strollers were standing on the sidewalk, 5 kids each surrounding them, looking at pictures. I said excuse me, they looked up, then turned back to the stack of photos and continued to look at them.

I waited 10 seconds, then walked right on, my stroller nudging one of theirs backwards into one of the ladies, forcing her to step back. Rolling Eyes

Some people, seriously...

smilethere

Thu, Nov 06 2008, 11:03 am

I just came back from a visit to ny and was shocked too at these americans (or maybe just very busy new yorkers)

I come from a big city, and I am always offered seats, help with the stroller, doors to be kept open etc...
Boro park, was actually not too bad,
but as mentioned above surly store workers, did get my blood boiling!! you are not the one doing me favour - I am doing you a favour by shopping in your store and giving you parnasa - ok whatever mentchlickeit.

Lucky store that treated me nicely, and had time and patience for me - I spent 750 dollars in half and hour!!

bandcm

Thu, Nov 06 2008, 7:31 pm

I think that it is not just a New York thing, it is specifically Jewish (dare I say frum?) New Yorkers who are most often guilty of rudeness.
I was once walking down a snowy, icy street in a Brooklyn neighbourhood, eight months pregnant, when I slipped and fell on my back. I could not stand up! There were people walking on the other side of the street, and the only person to cross the street to come to my aid was a black man. He pulled me up, asked me if I was okay, advised me to walk close to the wall, and said, "You take care of yourself, mother!"
All of the other people on the other side of the street were Jews.

Clarissa

Thu, Nov 06 2008, 7:34 pm

bandcm wrote:

When I had to take the stroller down the front steps of my building, the only people who ever offered me help were guys who were either black or from some other minority. White guys, even those with kipot would see me struggling and just walk on by.

bandcm

Thu, Nov 06 2008, 7:49 pm

What Im trying to say, Clarissa, is that unfortunately, I dont see it as EVEN the guys with kippot didnt help. I think that specifically the guys with kippot dont help.
Do you think it is a tznius issue?

Clarissa

Thu, Nov 06 2008, 7:57 pm

I can't say that it was a tsnius issue. A man can say, "Please let me help." Not too involved. You step back, he brings stroller down steps. Once it was two men, they obviously saw me, I actually looked at them like I needed help, and they ignored. Later, when I told my husband my frustration (and disappointed that two Jewish men wouldn't help) he said I thought have asked them outright, but I was too timid to do that.