Jewish Geography Ettiquette

amother

Tue, Dec 09 2008, 7:12 am

I think that there is a thing called tact, which some people lack. I myself am ffb, and if I am speaking to someone who I realize did not grow up in frum circles, I just don't get into these things. I'm not phased if someone tells me they went to public school or whatever. I'd just speak about things of mutual interest.
My fil is a ger, and chose a last name which everyone like to ask questions about. Like, "oh, Smith (not real name), how did you end up with a name like that. whats the source, is your fil israeli" etc. So I just say "he changed his name and chose this". I don't offer any more information and his status is not public knowledge and I certainly won't be the one to publicize it.

amother

Tue, Dec 09 2008, 7:40 am

I see the dispute about telling or hiding as a personality difference. Some people are more extroverted in realtionships, and others are more private. If someone thinks she won't be fully accepted if she reveals certain personal information, I can understand her being evasive.

Personally, I'm ready to accept people as they are, and I feel uncomfortable when people act mistrusting. I can't really get to know someone if she remains silent on every point. We're products of our present and past, and it's all fine with me, but I'm interested in the whole pcture, not just your image today. I'm not talking about prying, I'm talking about honest communiaction. I can't get that close to someone who is acting untrusting.

Of course, for a one time casual encounter, it doesn't insult me if someone provides minimal information. And maybe we should all think twice before playing the geography game and play it with sensitivity by listening for cues, because it could be stepping on someone's toes.

And when deciding how much to reveal, maybe we should listen to the other person's tone to determine if we trust her with our honesty. Of course, if there's something we don't want anyone to know, we wouldn't even tell it to someone who seems nice and accepting.

avigailmiriam

Tue, Dec 09 2008, 10:21 am

zaq wrote:

mamacita wrote:

OOT is a big place :roll

Interesting. Where I come from, "OOT" is a relative term meaning "outside of whatever municipality we are discussing at this moment". When did the definition change to "not from Brooklyn"?

Around the time people started assuming that all frum Jews live in Israel or that goldene medinah, Brooklyn.

Raisin

Tue, Dec 09 2008, 10:34 am

DefyGravity wrote:

It seems like the problem isn't playing Jewish Geography, it's simply some people's lack of tact.

I agree. and, the fact that being a bt or ger is seen as second class by some people.

Gamzu, while your experiences are truly terrible, none of them have anything to do with Jewish Geography. Just stupid, tactless people.

I think there are some people who are just, I don't know, just the way they say things you know they are judging you. eg someone came up to me and asked to see my wedding jewellery. Just the way she asked was offensive. Because I know her as a judgemental, sowewhat superficial person, any question she asks me puts me on the defensive.

Fox

Tue, Dec 09 2008, 10:59 am

amother wrote:

And maybe we should all think twice before playing the geography game and play it with sensitivity by listening for cues, because it could be stepping on someone's toes.

This probably sums up 50 percent of the interpersonal problems we read about on imamother! Some people are extraordinarily sensitive to non-verbal cues (Sophie Freud, the granddaughter of Sigmund Freud, actually did research on this), and some people are almost oblivious to non-verbal cues.

In fact, one of my DDs had this identified as an issue during an educational evaluation. One of her problems was that she simply wasn't processing non-verbal cues from her teachers. She actually now reminds her teachers and family members that she needs people to be explicit with her.

So maybe one answer is to simply treat all these inquisitive folks as if they have a mild learning disability: Look them in the eye and say in a kind voice, "Maybe you didn't notice how uncomfortable I am with this topic. Why don't we discuss your pet rabbit instead? Does she prefer clover or hay?" This response could be used to fend off queries regarding background; why you have so many children; why you don't have enough children; why your husband is in kollel; why your husband isn't in kollel; why you had an epidural; why you didn't have an epidural; yadda, yadda, yadda.

Yeah, yeah, I know. I probably won't say it either!

amother

Tue, Dec 09 2008, 11:33 am

In my community there are many BTs. When I moved here I slowly found out from others who they are. Maybe some might consider it L"H but I dont, nobody said it in a condescending way. But I think its very good to know. It helps prevent many foot-in-mouth situations, or innocent comments that might make them uncomfortable. I know never to bring up their past when speaking to them.
For those who say they dont want others to know about it, wouldnt it be better if others do know in order to avoid such situations?

GAMZu

Tue, Dec 09 2008, 11:51 am

Quote:

Gamzu, while your experiences are truly terrible, none of them have anything to do with Jewish Geography. Just stupid, tactless people.

True. Which explains WHY many women are reluctant to play Jewish Geography. It's not our "insecurities" that someone might find out that we are BT. It's that we don't want to be subjected the this kind of treatment once the information is out there.

Like that amother who said that at first she was looked up to like a Rebbetzin, but when her BT "status" came out, those same people wondered if she knew Alef Bais. Confused

Isramom8

Tue, Dec 09 2008, 12:09 pm

amother wrote:

I know someone who is a giyores, and she doesn't know I know. I know someone whose child was adopted, and she doesn't know I know. I'd prefer if they had told me, so that I could be especially sensitive. I knew another woman whose child was my child's best friend, and I didn't know the child had been adopted. When I finally figured it out, I worried if I had ever said anything insensitive accidentally. Someone told me that my having accepted the child as my child's friend both before and after figuring it out was the best compliment I could have given the mother.

GAMZu

Tue, Dec 09 2008, 1:04 pm

People who you become close to and interact with- they'll have to know. If your child's friend is adopted, it might help to know.
But when you meet someone at a Chinese Auction or a shuir, do you expect them to say, "Hi, I'm Chana and I have one adopted child." Or, "Hi, my name is Miriam and I'm a BT." ?

If the relationship continues, it's info worth sharing. If not, then why should we be your nightly entertainment, like someone else put it?

I think if you interact enough with a person to worry if you said or did anything that might be insensitive, I think you are in a close enough relationship for the person to share that she's a BT.

zaq

Tue, Dec 09 2008, 1:05 pm

Isramom8 wrote:

Someone told me that my having accepted the child as my child's friend both before and after figuring it out was the best compliment I could have given the mother.

Forgive me, but the person who told you that is an idiot. What the @#$%&*!!!! difference does it make to a child's "acceptability" if he's adopted? Your friend thinks it's big of you to "accept" such a child? What's there to "accept"? Adoption is not a contagious disease or questionable character trait, and adopted children are not damaged goods for people to "accept" or not accept. If I were an adoptive parent, I wouldn't consider your actions a compliment--I'd consider them normal behavior. The biggest compliment you can give an adoptive parent is exactly the same as the biggest compliment you can give a biological parent--and it's not "she looks just like you". It's "meeting you, I can see where she gets her excellent

character
middos
sense of humor
brains
personality
thoughtfulness
talent
other characteristic of your choice.

You must be very proud of her."

amother

Tue, Dec 09 2008, 3:20 pm

amother wrote:

Personally, I'm ready to accept people as they are, and I feel uncomfortable when people act mistrusting. I can't really get to know someone if she remains silent on every point. We're products of our present and past, and it's all fine with me, but I'm interested in the whole pcture, not just your image today. I'm not talking about prying, I'm talking about honest communiaction. I can't get that close to someone who is acting untrusting.

you seem to be implying here that if someone withholds their past their somehow being dishonest? as if who they are today is always merely an "image." I disagree! many of us have events in our pasts that do NOT represent us accurately. we should be free to leave those behind.

Isramom8

Tue, Dec 09 2008, 3:29 pm

amother wrote:

I didn't mean "image" as false representation. I mean that to really know a person, you have to understand where she is coming from.

GAMZu

Tue, Dec 09 2008, 6:08 pm

Isramom8 wrote:

amother wrote:

I didn't mean "image" as false representation. I mean that to really know a person, you have to understand where she is coming from.

And you need to know it after exchanging 3 sentences with her? (1- What's your name? 2- Where are you from? 3- this is where you start to catch on she's a BT.)

No. When you first meet someone, you don't need more than her current image. The rest can slowly come out, at her own pace, if your relationship continues.

realeez

Tue, Dec 09 2008, 6:38 pm

GAMZu wrote:

Isramom8 wrote:

amother wrote:

I didn't mean "image" as false representation. I mean that to really know a person, you have to understand where she is coming from.

chanagital

Tue, Dec 09 2008, 7:05 pm

I have said it before and I will say it again...it depends on who you ask if they are willing to talk about their background. I am not ashamed of my backround...so what if I didn't come from a frum family. As long as you don't see me as a second class citizen because of it I don't care. I will tell you my life story it is kinda unique... but if I say I don't want to answer something take it as is. I am truthful and you will only upset me if you try to force me to talk about something I don't want to talk about.

OOTBubby

Thu, Dec 11 2008, 8:16 pm

I love watching the reaction of people who after finding out that I grew up in this large urban area, ask me where I went to school, and then I answer public school. I watch their mouths fall open as they would never have guessed that I am a baalas teshuva (okay, for over 37 years). They are even more amazed as they play the Jewish geography game and find out that despite being a baalas teshuva, I know just as many people in different places (including NY area) as they do!

It doesn't bother me a bit.

I should also mention that the fact that I am a baalas teshuva and that my husband comes from an MO backgroud (we are mainstream Yeshivish) has had NO impact (that I know of) on my children's shidduchim. Some of my children have married into some of the most prominent, most prestigious yeshivish families in the US and some have married into families with parents who are baalei teshuva too.

In fact, in one shidduch, a close relative had been called for information by a relative of hers (not related to us) and was asked numerous times as to whether we are particular about the family's background (we aren't as long as they are now frum and their children are what we and our children are looking for). It turned out that they were concerned we would turn them down because both parents were baalei teshuva and had only become frum (and at a very gradual rate then) after marriage. They had no idea I was a baalas teshuva too.

zaq

Fri, Dec 12 2008, 10:02 am

OOTBubby wrote:

how does that follow? I went to college with a girl who I assumed was a bt b/c she went to public school, only to learn that she was ffb and had been homeschooled limudei kodesh to such an extent that she was accepted to a highly competitive girls' yeshiva hs. that's unusual, but for people of our generation, not unheard-of, especially if the public schools where you come from are actually good.

conversely, in cities where the public schools were really bad, a lot of people who were not observant sent their kids to hebrew day schools to keep them out of public schools and because the tuition was less than secular private schools.