Intermarriage Site

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Intermarriage Site

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Ilovechoumous

Mon, Dec 22 2008, 6:07 am

Is there a website that deals specifically with intermarriage? How to talk someone out of it without losing them kind of thing?

anyone have any success in getting someone out of intermarrying?

Raisin

Mon, Dec 22 2008, 6:16 am

Ilovechoumous wrote:

Is there a website that deals specifically with intermarriage? How to talk someone out of it without losing them kind of thing?

anyone have any success in getting someone out of intermarrying?

doron kornbluth has a book why marry jewish - he also lectures on it.

Ruchel

Mon, Dec 22 2008, 6:27 am

http://www.simpletoremember.co.....h.htm
http://www.simpletoremember.co.....t.htm

RachelLA

Sat, Jun 22 2013, 11:43 pm

http://www.divineinformation.c.....on-2/

this has helped some people!

DrMom

Sun, Jun 23 2013, 2:43 am

Here's my pessimistic view:

Once a Jew intends to marry out, the horse left the barn long ago. If a Jew really feels that s/he wants to make a non-Jew his/her life partner and parent of his/her children, that's a rather strong indicator that Judaism takes a backseat in that person's life.

The time to talk about the importance of marrying a Jew is WAY before someone is at the dating-to-find-a-life-partner stage.

And the way to make marrying a Jew important is to emphasize the importance of being a Jew and living a Jewish life and following mitzvot. Marrying a Jew should be a natural, positive goal, not a grudging restriction on one's love life.

shalhevet

Sun, Jun 23 2013, 3:09 am

DrMom wrote:

I pretty much agree with Dr. Mom. Of course there is a rare case of someone brought up shomer Shabbos who went off to college and fell in love with a non-Jewish boy (I know someone like this, but she also didn't have a good Jewish education). But almost all intermarriage today is among Jews with minimal or zero Jewish education. They might have married an equally assimilated Jew, and that would have been lucky. But they fell in love with a non-Jew first.

For them, what is more important? Some dusty, irrelevant religion that no one mentioned to them for the last 20-30 years since they were born, and which they know nothing about? Or the love of their life, who they have plenty in common with, since they are both interested in politics/ what they are studying in college/ sports/ fashion/ music or whatever, about which they know plenty?

It has been proved time and time again (and is just obvious anyway, without statistics) that the better a Jewish education a person has, the more Torah and mitzvos are a center of their life, the less likely intermarriage.

Just look at ourselves as frum women. Apart from those who weren't yet frum when dating, what would we have in common with someone non-Jewish (or even not frum)? Even if we had met someone like that casually, there wouldn't have even been any basis to start a relationship, even an innocent one.

etky

Sun, Jun 23 2013, 5:03 am

Shalhevet and Dr. Mom, I think you are basically correct but in the States, at least, the problem is a bit more nuanced. Intermarriage is also affecting many people who do have more than a minimal, albeit not orthodox, Jewish education and lifestyle. There are plenty of young Jews from committed Reform and Conservative backgrounds, brought up in homes where Judaism was a value and a strong presence, who are marrying out with little compunction. They do not feel that they are abandoning Judaism by doing so. The problem is that non-Orthodox movements have become mealy-mouthed about condemning intermarriage, turn a blind eye, and some are even willing to openly sanction such marriages. The Judaism that they preach has become so watered down and westernized, not to mention increasingly non-particularistic, that there is very little dividing Jews of these denominations from other high-minded, principled, altruistic and moral Americans of other faiths. Hence there are few barriers for marrying out, even for those with a relatively strong Jewish identity.

shalhevet

Sun, Jun 23 2013, 5:23 am

etky wrote:

OK, I am not an expert on this, so I will ask those who know more than I do:
What does being a committed Reform or Conservative Jew mean in someone's daily life?
What do they do when they wake up in the morning? (negel vasser, modeh ani, getting dressed according to halacha, davenning)
What does it mean regarding how they dress? Where they study? How they spend their day? Davenning and brachos?

Or does it mean some of their time on Shabbat to go to their places of worship?

Because paying lip-service to your Jewish identity is not going to be able to compete with your feelings for someone else. And it's not going to mean you are any different from them in your interests, lifestyle, and ambitions in life than that nice, well-educated [gentile].

I would imagine that as we go down the scale of commitment to Torah u'mitzvos and the place they hold in someone's life, we would encounter more intermarriage even when someone is an Orthodox Jew (as in people who don't really live their Judaism from havdala to candle lighting, apart from kashrus, are going to share similar values and interests with non jews, even if they are Shomrei Shabbos).

etky

Sun, Jun 23 2013, 6:04 am

shalhevet wrote:

etky wrote:

OK, I am not an expert on this, so I will ask those who know more than I do:
What does being a committed Reform or Conservative Jew mean in someone's daily life?
What do they do when they wake up in the morning? (negel vasser, modeh ani, getting dressed according to halacha, davenning)
What does it mean regarding how they dress? Where they study? How they spend their day? Davenning and brachos?

Or does it mean some of their time on Shabbat to go to their places of worship?

Because paying lip-service to your Jewish identity is not going to be able to compete with your feelings for someone else. And it's not going to mean you are any different from them in your interests, lifestyle, and ambitions in life than that nice, well-educated gentile.

I would imagine that as we go down the scale of commitment to Torah u'mitzvos and the place they hold in someone's life, we would encounter more intermarriage even when someone is an Orthodox Jew (as in people who don't really live their Judaism from havdala to candle lighting, apart from kashrus, are going to share similar values and interests with non jews, even if they are Shomrei Shabbos).

Probably very little of the things that you listed. By a committed Conservative/Reform Jew (as opposed to an non-affiliated American Jew) I mean someone who has attended a Jewish day school, if not high school as well, as opposed to someone who just had once a week "Sunday School" instruction in advance of his bar/batmitzva, or nothing at all. There is a good chance this person will have been affiliated with a Jewish youth movement and have visited Israel at least once and perhaps even spent some time here. Shul on Shabbat definitely and on holidays along with traditional family meals on these occasions. Jewish summer camp, community involvement, volunteering, tikkun Olam, liberal values etc. All things that have more to do with identification and values than observance. That is the essence of non-Orthodox Judaism in America today. I hate to call it lip service - it's probably more the idea that Judaism can co-exist alongside other equally tolerant and enlightened cultures, even in the context of marriage . What I was pointing out is that while in the past this 'cultural Judaism' was perhaps enough to protect against intermarriage to some extent, nowadays, even this relatively (emphasis on relatively) strong Jewish awareness and literacy is no longer an effective prophylactic , due in part to the increased acceptance of intermarriage by non-Orthodox denominations.

DrMom

Sun, Jun 23 2013, 6:09 am

I grew up in a not-particularly-observant Conservative-affiliated home in the US, and my comments reflect my experiences.

Most of the "committed Conservative Jews" I know have a different interpretation of what it means to be "committed Jew" than what an Orthodox person would mean by the same phrase. A "committed Conservative Jews" may belong to (although not necessarily regularly attend) Conservative shuls. The children will have a bar-mitzvah ceremony + party. Most send their children to public schools. They may donate to some Jewish charities. Socially, however, many of their friends and children's friends may be non-Jews.

In both the Conservative & Reform congregations, there are so many intermarried members, the clergy are loathe to speak out against intermarriage for fear of alienating their membership (who are, after all, the people who pay their salaries).

The URJ’s pamphlet for intermarried families opens with “Intermarried? Reform Judaism welcomes you!”
http://urj.org/life/interfaith.....13609

There is even debate stirring about repealing Hebrew U's ban on intermarried Reform clergy.

Is it any wonder that Reform & Conservative Jews intermarry in such huge numbers?

scrltfr

Sun, Jun 23 2013, 11:59 am

My bro in law married a non jew, he was dating her for years and my husband was the only one that held firm and when they got engaged he was just devestated but was told that there was just nothing he could do since his parents were alowing it. They now have a child and the whole family is just in denial and if we make a comment that she is not Jewish we get yelled at. But considering husband and I are the only frum ones in the family we're pretty much resigned to the fact that our nieces and nephews will probably marry out as well since they are not even getting a jewish education.

mirror

Sun, Jun 23 2013, 6:54 pm

All the modern self-help books pretty much say you control your destiny, and you only get negative vibes if you initiate them, yada yada. So for someone who is raised secular and believes you control your destiny, telling them that "Oil and water don't mix" will fall on deaf ears.

imaamy

Sun, Jun 23 2013, 11:28 pm

I'm 100 percent against marrying out. However, we have dozens of threads here recently about DHs, BT or FFB, who are abusive, drug/alcohol users, refuse to work, treat kids poorly, cheat in business, etc. How is marrying an observant mate any sort of guarantee?

DrMom

Mon, Jun 24 2013, 12:47 am

imaamy wrote:

This argument makes no sense. These issues are all orthogonal. Nobody is claiming that marrying a Jew will guarantee that your marriage will be perfect. But it will set the foundation for a Jewish family life. It's a necessary but not sufficient requirement for a healthy Jewish home.

The idea is to find a suitable match, your bashert, someone with whom you can build bayit ne'eman b'yisrael -- not any yutz who comes along who happens to be Jewish.

imaamy

Mon, Jun 24 2013, 5:28 am

Dr Mom, really no need for your harsh tone as I was not saying I favored a gentile because some frum men are lousy. I'm just shocked by how many threads have popped up recently showing these "bashert" to be just so not. Of course the women didn't go looking for any yutz: many went through the shidduch process or met a man with all the right credentials who turned out to be lazy, abusive, addicted to [filth], etc. Of course the point is to find someone with whom you can raise a Jewish family, but it seems that isn't working out well for many imamothers here.

SJcookie

Mon, Jun 24 2013, 9:27 am

DrMom wrote:

In both the Conservative & Reform congregations, there are so many intermarried members, the clergy are loathe to speak out against intermarriage for fear of alienating their membership (who are, after all, the people who pay their salaries).

Yup. I attended a conservative (shechter) day school over a decade ago and around 30% of my grade were products of parents who intermarried. Of that 30%, some parents converted via a reform or conservative rabbi, and others didn't bother converting.
I have no idea what the school's intermarriage statistics is now.

DrMom

Mon, Jun 24 2013, 9:32 am

imaamy wrote:

I don't understand the point you are trying to make. "All the right credentials" (whatever they may be) is a minimum requirement, not a guarantee of lifetime happiness.

And what on earth does this have to do with intermarriage?

Barbara

Mon, Jun 24 2013, 9:55 am

A committed Conservative Jew observes kashrut, Shabbat and all of the holidays, and TH, although she may not do so in the same manner as a committed Orthodox Jew. Attire is likely to be less of an issue. Her children are likely to attend a Jewish day school, and almost certainly attend Jewish camps (which are easier to find outside of large metropolitan areas). Conservative rabbis do not and may not marry a couple that includes a non-Jew, and the vast, vast, vast majority of Conservative synagogues do not allow a non-Jew who is married to a Jew to be a synagogue member. (The Jew, of course, can be a member.)

A committed Reform Jew will attend synagogue services on a regular basis, and understand, but not necessarily keep, kashrut. Her children will attend Hebrew school through Confirmation (at the end of the junior year in high school). The kids will also attend Jewish camps, such as Eisner.

To the best of my knowledge, and as Shalhevet correctly states, intermarriage rates are proportionate with Jewish education and commitment. The vast majority of people who attend a day school for 12 years and attend Jewish camps marry other Jews. Those who attend after-school Jewish programs and Jewish camps, and those who attend Jewish camps alone, also mostly marry Jews, albeit at a less overwhelming rate than the first category. Those who have neither Jewish education nor commitment -- not surprisingly -- tend to intermarry. And the children of intermarriage overwhelmingly intermarry.

It is, IMNSHO, a no-brainer. People to whom Judaism is important marry other Jews. People to whom Judaism is not important don't.

imaamy

Mon, Jun 24 2013, 10:08 am

DrMom wrote:

imaamy wrote:

You are right, it has nothing to do with intermarriage. I should remove the post. I wasn't trying to make a point for intermarriage as I said in my first line, first post. Just thinking out loud as I'm shocked by all the recent thread about deadbeat DHs. And what on earth makes you so aggressive?

imaamy

Mon, Jun 24 2013, 10:11 am

and the vast, vast, vast majority of Conservative synagogues do not allow a non-Jew who is married to a Jew to be a synagogue member. (The Jew, of course, can be a member.)

Maybe this is regional? In smaller communities the shuls want to attract any members they can and people I know here would not want to join and pay high dues if their spouse couldn't be a member.

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