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DrMom




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jun 24 2013, 10:14 am
imaamy wrote:
DrMom wrote:
imaamy wrote:
Dr Mom, really no need for your harsh tone as I was not saying I favored a gentile because some frum men are lousy. I'm just shocked by how many threads have popped up recently showing these "bashert" to be just so not. Of course the women didn't go looking for any yutz: many went through the shidduch process or met a man with all the right credentials who turned out to be lazy, abusive, addicted to [filth], etc. Of course the point is to find someone with whom you can raise a Jewish family, but it seems that isn't working out well for many imamothers here.

I don't understand the point you are trying to make. "All the right credentials" (whatever they may be) is a minimum requirement, not a guarantee of lifetime happiness.

And what on earth does this have to do with intermarriage?


You are right, it has nothing to do with intermarriage. I should remove the post. I wasn't trying to make a point for intermarriage as I said in my first line, first post. Just thinking out loud as I'm shocked by all the recent thread about deadbeat DHs. And what on earth makes you so aggressive?

Um, I'm not trying to be aggressive -- I'm just trying to figure out what you are saying.
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DrMom




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jun 24 2013, 10:18 am
imaamy wrote:
and the vast, vast, vast majority of Conservative synagogues do not allow a non-Jew who is married to a Jew to be a synagogue member. (The Jew, of course, can be a member.)

Maybe this is regional? In smaller communities the shuls want to attract any members they can and people I know here would not want to join and pay high dues if their spouse couldn't be a member.

I'd venture that most intermarried Jews who previously affiliated with the Conservative movement switched affiliation to Reform after intermarrying. Reform not only doesn't actively disapprove of intermarriage, they actually enable it. Many of their clergy officiate at intermariages, and many Reform temples allow non-Jewish spouses to get aliyot, be on the board, etc.
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Barbara




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jun 24 2013, 11:15 am
DrMom wrote:
imaamy wrote:
and the vast, vast, vast majority of Conservative synagogues do not allow a non-Jew who is married to a Jew to be a synagogue member. (The Jew, of course, can be a member.)

Maybe this is regional? In smaller communities the shuls want to attract any members they can and people I know here would not want to join and pay high dues if their spouse couldn't be a member.

I'd venture that most intermarried Jews who previously affiliated with the Conservative movement switched affiliation to Reform after intermarrying. Reform not only doesn't actively disapprove of intermarriage, they actually enable it. Many of their clergy officiate at intermariages, and many Reform temples allow non-Jewish spouses to get aliyot, be on the board, etc.


Reform does disapprove of intermarriage, while recognizing that it exists, and trying to find a way of dealing with it. (As, BTW, are even the most right-wing Orthodox rabbis, albeit less publicly.)

Quote:
One of the most important steps in planning a Jewish wedding is finding a rabbi or cantor to officiate at the ceremony. When it comes to officiation at weddings between Jews and non-Jews, you will find a variety of opinions and practices. Reform Rabbis belong to the Central Conference of American Rabbis (CCAR). The CCAR discourages its members from officiating at interfaith weddings. Many rabbis understand their ordination as authorizing them to officiate only at Jewish weddings where both members of the couple are Jewish. While the CCAR discourages it members from officiating at interfaith weddings, it does not prevent them from doing so. Ultimately, rabbis are given autonomy in such matters and each rabbi interprets Jewish tradition according to his or her own understanding. Some Reform Rabbis reach the decision, after much study that a greater good is served by officiating at interfaith weddings. Most rabbis do so with certain standards. Often they require that the couple or non-Jewish partner take an Introduction to Judaism class and commit to creating a Jewish home and raising Jewish children.


As to Conservative, just a couple of years ago, it might national news that a single Conservative synagogue decided to allow non-Jewish spouses to be members, so I'd be surprised if the practice were widespread. But in any case, I'm a pragmatist. If a non-Jewish spouse wants to regularly attend shul, have an aliya, and raise his or her children as Jews, welcome aboard, and let's talk conversion real soon, OK?
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DrMom




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jun 24 2013, 11:59 am
Barbara, there are TONS of reform clergy who perform interfaith wedding ceremonies. Many will even perform such ceremonies on Shabbat.

I know this because when I was engaged I belonged to a wedding planning forum, and I participated in the board for Jewish brides. I was stunned by the ease with which interfaith couples found reform clergy to officiate their ceremonies.

As long as the couple paid their fees (including membership fees to the clergy's temple), s/he would officiate their mariage. Togeter with a priest, on shabbat -- it didn't seem to matter. And this was >10 years ago; I assume things have gotten more lax (or "open-minded") since then.

Again: Once the congregants are intermarried, it's hard for the clergy member paid by this congregation to say anything against intermarriage without offending his employers.

The URJ's parve statement about "letting each clergy decide for his own" whether to officiate or not is their way of copping out of condemning a practice which brings in many paying members onto its membership rosters.
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jun 24 2013, 1:24 pm
shalhevet wrote:
DrMom wrote:
Here's my pessimistic view:

Once a Jew intends to marry out, the horse left the barn long ago. If a Jew really feels that s/he wants to make a non-Jew his/her life partner and parent of his/her children, that's a rather strong indicator that Judaism takes a backseat in that person's life.

The time to talk about the importance of marrying a Jew is WAY before someone is at the dating-to-find-a-life-partner stage.

And the way to make marrying a Jew important is to emphasize the importance of being a Jew and living a Jewish life and following mitzvot. Marrying a Jew should be a natural, positive goal, not a grudging restriction on one's love life.


I pretty much agree with Dr. Mom. Of course there is a rare case of someone brought up shomer Shabbos who went off to college and fell in love with a non-Jewish boy (I know someone like this, but she also didn't have a good Jewish education). But almost all intermarriage today is among Jews with minimal or zero Jewish education. They might have married an equally assimilated Jew, and that would have been lucky. But they fell in love with a non-Jew first.

For them, what is more important? Some dusty, irrelevant religion that no one mentioned to them for the last 20-30 years since they were born, and which they know nothing about? Or the love of their life, who they have plenty in common with, since they are both interested in politics/ what they are studying in college/ sports/ fashion/ music or whatever, about which they know plenty?

It has been proved time and time again (and is just obvious anyway, without statistics) that the better a Jewish education a person has, the more Torah and mitzvos are a center of their life, the less likely intermarriage.

Just look at ourselves as frum women. Apart from those who weren't yet frum when dating, what would we have in common with someone non-Jewish (or even not frum)? Even if we had met someone like that casually, there wouldn't have even been any basis to start a relationship, even an innocent one.


It's not really as much about education as about the joy Judaism brings them. If Judaism is a source of joy, the child is likely to marry Jewish. If not, not.
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Tziril Miriam




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Aug 17 2014, 1:40 pm
At my MO shul, members who intermarry can only have an individual membership, not a family one. Same policy at the "conservative" synagogue. Some Rabbi's have told intermarried couples to just join as a family and ignore the printed statement on the application form. But someone on our Ritual Committee always seems to ferret out the problem and phone the Jewish member of the couple, telling them to downgrade their membership from married to single. No refund in fees is ever offered, the difference in fees from family to single is considered tzedukah and not refunded.
We had an intermarried woman say that she didn't want to claim that she was single. The Ritual Committee person told her not to worry, no one would ask her out on a date. We lost her as a member, she had a very nice extended family, and an educated, quiet non-Jewish husband. They were actually major contributors, they gave us our new Sukkah that final year. We still have a brass plaque in the foyer with their (non-Jewish) last name, for their contribution to the endowment.
I do think that the Ritual Committee should follow the lead of the Rabbi. There was no need to be rude. Telling her that no one would ask her out on a date went too far. It probably reminded her that no Jewish man ever asked her to marry.
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