explaining segulas

Ima2NYM_LTR

Fri, Jan 09 2009, 10:45 am

I was talking with a devout Christian co-worker about the segula of a
pregnant woman keeping a ruby on her as a protection for the pregnancy.
She was shocked that Judaism would believe in superstitions, since it is
putting power in something beside HaShem.

I was trying to think of a good way to explain it to her. I personally do
not hold by segulas very much, but I understand those who do.

I came up with something I think she would understand, but I wanted other
peoples opinion on it, especially those who hold by segulas. Please let me
know what you think.

A segula is akin to a material prayer. In life there is time we can pray,
but there are times when we cannot pray, such as while working, eating,
sleeping, etc. By using a segula, we are not putting the power in the
object, It is instead our way of telling HaShem that even when we are not
actively praying, the prayer that is represented by the segula is still
important to us.

We find an event or a person in our nations past that is indicative of the
prayer we wish we could be saying at all times. We associate a physical
item with that event or person, through logical means. Then we carry that
item with us. There is no power in the item. It does not save us/protect
us/help us. It is there a) as a reminder to us to pray and b) when we
cannot pray, as a small substitute. We are saying to HaShem “Just as you
long ago allowed for X event to occur, we are asking that you allow for the
same to happen for us. We carry this remembrance of your past kindness with
us, and we put our faith in you”

Does that make sense? Is there anything I am missing?

cassandra

Fri, Jan 09 2009, 11:10 am

Ima2Netanel wrote:

I came up with something I think she would understand, but I wanted other
peoples opinion on it, especially those who hold by segulas. Please let me
know what you think.

A segula is akin to a material prayer. In life there is time we can pray,
but there are times when we cannot pray, such as while working, eating,
sleeping, etc. By using a segula, we are not putting the power in the
object, It is instead our way of telling HaShem that even when we are not
actively praying, the prayer that is represented by the segula is still
important to us.

We find an event or a person in our nations past that is indicative of the
prayer we wish we could be saying at all times. We associate a physical
item with that event or person, through logical means. Then we carry that
item with us. There is no power in the item. It does not save us/protect
us/help us. It is there a) as a reminder to us to pray and b) when we
cannot pray, as a small substitute. We are saying to HaShem “Just as you
long ago allowed for X event to occur, we are asking that you allow for the
same to happen for us. We carry this remembrance of your past kindness with
us, and we put our faith in you”

Does that make sense? Is there anything I am missing?

Do you know the midrash about how idol worship began in this world? It is the same story you are telling.

shalhevet

Sat, Jan 10 2009, 1:30 pm

I agree with hadasa and mali - segulas are a type of medicine which we only believe in when they are written by great tzaddikim/ talmidei chachamim who knew they worked.

Why does iodine disinfect a wound? Why does another substance block pain? Not all medicines have a logical explanation - they have just been discovered to work.

The trouble is many of the 'segulas' thrown around today don't have any basis at all (the red string I heard from Rav Mutzafi is based on something outside Judaism, I can't remember the details).

Some segulas are like a spiritual tool - for example being careful with Shabbos and Chanuka candles ensures children who are talmidei chachamim, because we show our love for these mitzvos given to us by the chachamim (as opposed to directly from the Torah).

cassandra

Sat, Jan 10 2009, 3:15 pm

shalhevet wrote:

Some segulas are like a spiritual tool - for example being careful with Shabbos and Chanuka candles ensures children who are talmidei chachamim, because we show our love for these mitzvos given to us by the chachamim (as opposed to directly from the Torah).

How is proper treatment of a mitzvah (whether d'oraita or d'rabbanan) anything like a segula?

mali

Sat, Jan 10 2009, 3:21 pm

cassandra wrote:

shalhevet wrote:

How is proper treatment of a mitzvah (whether d'oraita or d'rabbanan) anything like a segula?

I think shalhevet meant hiddur mitzvah (beautifying the mitzvah), and not just being careful.

bandcm

Sat, Jan 10 2009, 3:32 pm

cassandra wrote:

shalhevet wrote:

How is proper treatment of a mitzvah (whether d'oraita or d'rabbanan) anything like a segula?

In fact, being careful with mitzvos is the best segula there is.
Wearing red strings, and other foolishness, is in fact not a segula for anything.
So I think, OP, the answer to your question is that most of the things people consider segulos today are nothing but superstitions, whereas genuine segulos exist, (like Shalhevet mentioned) but they are too ordinary to attract many peoples' attention.

cassandra

Sat, Jan 10 2009, 3:47 pm

mali wrote:

cassandra wrote:

shalhevet wrote:

How is proper treatment of a mitzvah (whether d'oraita or d'rabbanan) anything like a segula?

I think shalhevet meant hiddur mitzvah (beautifying the mitzvah), and not just being careful.

Hiddur mitzvah is a halachic construct, not a segula.

mali

Sat, Jan 10 2009, 4:03 pm

cassandra wrote:

mali wrote:

cassandra wrote:

shalhevet wrote:

How is proper treatment of a mitzvah (whether d'oraita or d'rabbanan) anything like a segula?

I think shalhevet meant hiddur mitzvah (beautifying the mitzvah), and not just being careful.

Hiddur mitzvah is a halachic construct, not a segula.

still, you can keep a mitzvah within the halachic borders and still be perfectly fine, and you can go beyond and beautify the mitzvah.

examples:
lighting with pure olive oil
giving tzedaka before performing another mitzvah
washing hands before getting out of bed in the morning

cassandra

Sat, Jan 10 2009, 4:06 pm

What I'm saying is that hiddur mitzvah is a concept in halacha itself. So it's not super-halachic, because it is still within the halachic framework. At least that is the case with lighting with olive oil. As far as the other two, I don't know about them, I'm not really sure how they are an example of hiddur since they don't improve upon the mitzvah itself, and if people do them because they think it will improve their lives somehow I think that is a perversion rather than a hiddur.

mali

Sat, Jan 10 2009, 4:21 pm

the lubavitcher rebbe often spoke about the importance of giving tzedaka before doing another mitzvah such as candle lighting. as a segulah for pregnant women, he said to give an amount that's a multiple of 18 before lighting shabbat candes.

I believe the source for not stepping out of bed without washing your hands is from the ba'al shem tov. the SA says not to walk 4 amos without washing your hands in the morning.

thus, calling these hiddurim perversions without first looking into their sources is rather rude.

back to the segulah idea. a segulah is sometimes a hiddur mitzvah and is sometimes something that seems totally unconnected not only to the goal, but also to any mitzvah. yet, if it comes from a reliable source, then it's something worth doing. for example, the idea of carrying a stone when pregnant has a source in gemarra. in Shabbos 66b, the sages rule that a woman may step out on shabbos carrying this stone (even tekuma) because it's a protection from m/c.

so, back to your question, ima2n, there are many religious customs which xtianity and islam have adapted from judaism. we are not copying them ch"v, because we only follow segulot which our sages and teachers specifically taught us, and not other superstitions we learnt from other religions/cults ch"v. as a matter of fact, the rambam clearly points out that it's an aveira to believe in superstitions (such as walking under a ladder, breaking a mirror etc.). so one must check the source of a segulah before going ahead and believing in it.

but most of all, the segulah is just a means, and not a goal in itself, as you said earlier in this post. we must always remember that the segulah comes in addition to prayers, charity and repentence and not as an easy shortcut towards the realization of our dreams/hopes.

cassandra

Sat, Jan 10 2009, 4:29 pm

mali wrote:

so, back to your question, ima2n, there are many religious customs which xtianity and islam have adapted from judaism. we are not copying them ch"v, because we only follow segulot which our sages and teachers specifically taught us, and not other superstitions we learnt from other religions/cults ch"v. as a matter of fact, the rambam clearly points out that it's an aveira to believe in superstitions (such as walking under a ladder, breaking a mirror etc.). so one must check the source of a segulah before going ahead and believing in it.

This is going to get deleted, but Lubavitchers are the only ones who have this version of history. (Much of Islam is derived from Judaism, not so with Christianity. The ethics of Christianity are derived from Judaism but most of the practices are derived from paganism.) But since this is only going to be up for thirty seconds anyway I won't waste my time.

I can say that my own Rabbis have a lot of problems with these practices and movements that endorse these practices. It fits much better with Jewish history and literature.

chaylizi

Sat, Jan 10 2009, 4:40 pm

amother wrote:

I'm with Cassandra. Before I was married I wore a red string as a segulah - my Rebbetzin cut it off my wrist without asking me first. She said it's a segulah for attracting nut-jobs... a very shtark woman with a chashuve husband and I didn't second guess her.

that's a little rude though. a comment to that effect probably would have sufficed. but then, I'm really not into people who violate my personal space.

avigailmiriam

Sat, Jan 10 2009, 4:43 pm

cassandra wrote:

mali wrote:

Basically this, yes. Christianity is inspired by Judaism, but not much else. Theologically, there are almost no similarities. If you want to understand Christianity, read Plato, not the Tanakh.