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ChaSIdsiche v. Chaseeeedish
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chocolate moose




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Feb 11 2006, 3:37 pm
Technic mentioned that maybe I should start a thread discussing this, and to be perfectly honest, the idea did cross my mind over Shabbos.

Correct me if my memory fails, but from what I remember, there are two kinds of Chassidic group:

ChaBaD (based on Chochma Bina Daa)

and

ChaGaS (based on Chochama Gevurah Tifereth)

The only kind of Chabad left is Lubavitch. The others did not survive the wars and pogroms. So, for today, the term Chabad and Lubavitch are interchangeable.

And Chabad, if I may put it into a nutshell, bases itself on learning and davening & being mekusher to the Rebbe - including but not limited to learning Rambam, doing Chitas, going on Mivtzoim, etc.

As far as Chagas Chassidim, those are the people you see with more the chitzonius garb - the women with the hats and heavy tights. The exact same Shabbos menu in everyone's house. They daven and learn, too, but their main work is on themselves.

I am not saying anyone's "better". I am not saying anyone's avoidah is more important.

I think it's just important to state the facts for those who don't know them or who may have forgotten them.

Me, in my denim skirt (so to speak), giving out Shabbos lict at Macy's, is no more or less choshuv than a Boro Park lady's double head covering when she is out, doing her errands.

Its all avoidah, directed to the Ribbono Shel Oilam. Obviously I have chosen the path that speaks to me, as the one I want to follow, as the most worthy path, but I do not denigrade any other path.

Your comments are MOST invited here.
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Mandy




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Feb 11 2006, 4:22 pm
Quote:
As far as Chagas Chassidim, those are the people you see with more the chitzonius garb - the women with the hats and heavy tights. The exact same Shabbos menu in everyone's house. They daven and learn, too, but their main work is on themselves


I'm not sure how you thought this wasn't derogatory. Their main work is on themselves ? Isn't this painting them with a rather selfish brush ?
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chocolate moose




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Feb 11 2006, 4:40 pm
I don't think so. Their work is inward. They are closed communities. They don't invite baal tshuvas.
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Mommy912




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Feb 11 2006, 5:13 pm
SaraG wrote:
The exact same Shabbos menu in everyone's house.

Trying to understand this comment Scratching Head
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happyone




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Feb 11 2006, 5:18 pm
They don't invite bal teshuvas?????

Where I grew up, and live now... many many chassidish (non - chabad) families have bal teshuvas at their home for shabbos. The difference is; we don't actively go out and seek to make bal teshuvas. However, we do welcome to our homes and shuls baal teshuvas. In fact, in my family/extended family we host MANY baal teshuvas every shabbos.
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AweSumThenSum




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Feb 11 2006, 5:28 pm
whoa!! a hornet's nest in the making here. but I do understand the point u r trying to make. I summed it up once as saying the difference betw. quantity and quality. chabad believes in making as many balei teshuvah as possible, while the "other" chassidus believes that making b.t. is not as important as being a high quality jew, and for that reason they dont go out seeking for people to make into b.t. but rather once s/o is already on the path "home", these chassidim will welcome them with open arms.
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chocolate moose




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Feb 11 2006, 5:57 pm
First of all, the menu is set in stone - you probably didn't know it - only certain fish, the salads, etc.

Happyone, what kind of chosid are you?

And as far as b.t.s at their Shabbos tables, a lot of them do not have non family members there, but if they do - do they also invite b.t.'s to marry into their own families?
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red sea




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Feb 11 2006, 8:33 pm
Okay Sara, I think this is a great thread, now speaking as an unbiased third party of no kind of chassidic decent, how about we make it a level representing field and you present what lubavich is about and another kind of chassidic member step up and say what that path is about. And how about some other informative tidbits for the uneducated me - how many types are there? And why I have trouble naming the different items the men wear and usually end up making a fool of myself Very Happy . Please include an informative education for the non chassidic members in the arguments that I'm sure will follow.
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Crayon210




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Feb 11 2006, 8:40 pm
I don't think SaraG (or any one person) should present and represent what Lubavitch (or any other group) is about by herself!
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red sea




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Feb 11 2006, 8:43 pm
good point crayon - a few people telling will give a more complete and accurate idea, but what I think I mainly meant is that you shouldn't say what other people are if you are not one of them.
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Crayon210




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Feb 11 2006, 8:44 pm
Good idea, in general.
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stem




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Feb 11 2006, 8:55 pm
Is it just me, or does anyone else NOT get the title of this thread???! Can someone ChaSIdische or Chaseeeedish please explain?
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LubavitchLeah




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Feb 11 2006, 10:19 pm
AweSum then Sum says:

" I summed it up once as saying the difference betw. quantity and quality. chabad believes in making as many balei teshuvah as possible, while the "other" chassidus believes that making b.t. is not as important as being a high quality jew, and for that reason they dont go out seeking for people to make into b.t. but rather once s/o is already on the path "home", these chassidim will welcome them with open arms."

Does anyone else take as much ISSUE as I do with this Tounge in cheek report about Quality V Quantity, Other Chasidus V Lubavitch.
Surely every YID is in Essence a Yid and we need to connect to them, even our very lost brothers' and sisters, that dont BEGIN to reach out to us....You dont think that some of these Quantity can become Quality Yidden possibly, perhaps?????
I understand your perception on Lubavitch from your post, it is clear, however TIKUN OLAM is not simply a concept that we remain stationary to perform, a YID is a YID is a YID, we are all QUALITY in essence.
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raizy




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Feb 11 2006, 10:35 pm
why do u say that "chasidesh pple" have the same menu bye their shabbos table. I have yet to see the exact same menu on 2 shabbos tables.
I dont even eat thesame things as my mom nevermind the neighbor down the street.
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sarahd




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Feb 12 2006, 1:28 am
Yes, forgive me SaraG, but on its surface that was a fairly ridiculous comment, unless you were trying to illustrate what you see as the conformity of other chassidic groups. Which is what an outsider would see. Once you get closer to chassidim, though, you realize that they are not all cut out of the same cookie-cutter mold.

BTW, there are lots of chassidic groups that are open to and involved in kiruv (Skver, Belz and Breslov come to mind.) However, it is true that generally speaking chassidim try to be as little involved in the "outside" world as possible, and therefore you won't find them accosting people on the street to get them to put on tefillin or light Shabbos candles.
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chocolate moose




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Feb 12 2006, 6:13 am
It has been my experience by Satmar in Williamsburgh that the Shabbos menu is SET.

Where is Mindy when you need her? She posts here and would explain it.

As far as outreach, yes, everyone has got their thumb in the pie nowl.

But you see the Chagash Chassidim mainly focus is their levushim and their learning, whereas Chabad is outreach.

Mainly. Not 100%.
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AweSumThenSum




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Feb 12 2006, 6:23 am
while I'm not from satmar and not from williamsburg either, I do have first hand experience with that crowd and I can understand why one would think that e/o in that community does e/t the same as e/o else. however, that is not always the case. yes, conformity is the general rule, and that applies to every aspect of life - spiritual and physical. but I think that conformity is what keeps the chassidish velt alive. each chassidus has its own unique path and conforming to that path is what keeps that chassidus alive. yes, there are extremes and not all conformity is good, and not all areas of life require conformity (I.e. shabbos menu) but, for better or worse, that's what makes the system work!!
as for quantity vs. quality, I remember learning about y moshe rabbeinu a"h broke the first luchos, and that was because he saw that the jews won't adhere to the mitzvos so he said that better they shouldnt keep the luchos on the premise of "we didnt know" rather than get the luchos, know the contents, and then sin b'meyzid (on purpose). tying it into this thread, MOST of the chassidish outside of lubavitch feels that if a jew wont behave totally as a good jew should, then they would rather not introduce to them to their religion cuz at least if the person sins, he will be considered as sinning b'shogeg (unintentionally). again, for better or for worse, this is the premise behind the various outreach programs.
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Pearl




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Feb 12 2006, 6:30 am
I just wanted to say this is an interesting discussion!
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Mommy912




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Feb 12 2006, 6:32 am
I think this thread is heading towards becoming a 'controversial topic'.
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Motek




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Feb 12 2006, 6:43 am
SaraG wrote:
Correct me if my memory fails


okay, I will Smile

Quote:
, but from what I remember, there are two kinds of Chassidic group:

ChaBaD (based on Chochma Bina Daa)


Daas

Quote:
and

ChaGaS (based on Chochama Gevurah Tifereth)


Chesed not Chochma

Quote:
The only kind of Chabad left is Lubavitch. The others did not survive the wars and pogroms. So, for today, the term Chabad and Lubavitch are interchangeable.


left? others? Confused there has only been one kind of Chabad!

Quote:
And Chabad, if I may put it into a nutshell, bases itself on learning and davening & being mekusher to the Rebbe - including but not limited to learning Rambam, doing Chitas, going on Mivtzoim, etc.


The Baal Shem Tov came to teach that everybody CAN serve G-d (not a given in those days). The Baal Ha'Tanya came to show HOW everyone can serve G-d through his intellectual (Chochma, Bina, Daas) system of understanding Elokus (G-dliness).

The "motto" of Chagas Chasidim is based on the verse, "tzadik b'emunaso yichyeh" (a tzadik lives by his faith), don't read it 'yichye" but "yichayeh" (makes live), that the tzadik makes his Chasidim live with his faith, meaning - connect to the tzadik and he, with his love and fear of G-d, lifts his chasidim up with him.

Stem - I think that the title is meant to emphasize the differences in pronunciation

as far as menus, anybody see the terrific book called "Shabbos Secrets"? It has pictures in the back of Shabbos foods, the various minhagim. Could be many people experiment more these days and make Hawaiin Chicken and meatballs for Shabbos, but there are chasidim who stick to the traditional foods not because they are uncreative but because those foods have spiritual significance.

sarahd - I find the word "accosting" in your post offensive because even though the literal meaning is neutral, it often is used in a negative sense

back to Chabad and Chagas - Chabad is not about outreach though the Rebbe (his father-in-law) originated it on a large scale

Chabad was and still is about intellectually apprehending G-dliness.

awesum:
Quote:
MOST of the chassidish outside of lubavitch feels that if a jew wont behave totally as a good jew should, then they would rather not introduce to them to their religion cuz at least if the person sins, he will be considered as sinning b'shogeg (unintentionally


Can you quote someone on that? I have never heard that reason for failing to reach out to Jews who were deprived of a Jewish education, and by now, all groups DO reach out in kiruv so that reason, if it ever was one, was dropped.
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