Using Gifts to Pay for the Simcha

zuncompany

Thu, Dec 16 2004, 10:00 pm

Not okay. We did use our wedding gifts to help buy things for our home that we did not get and needed though.

When the boys were born we did use the money to help buy things like cribs, stroller, etc... Most people gave us money cause they didn't know what we needed.

My question- can you use bar mitzvah money to help pay his hat, tefillin, etc? Or at least a percentage to go for that?

sara

Tefila

Thu, Dec 16 2004, 10:26 pm

For Bar Mitzvah and explaining B/4 hand a portion should go to cover cost don't see anything wrong.
But a Chasunah I think is very different!!
This is my take on it we pay tuition from elementary till they are 18yrs even with a discount it's a fortune. Thier money would have been invested anyway so it's like the money recieved for Bar Mitzvah helps with continued education.
Sorry I am not totaly focused today got the flu, but do I make any sense!
However I am against telling child after the event

Sunshine

Sun, Dec 26 2004, 9:00 pm

I agree with what freilich said. Tell the Bar Mitzva boy before hand that x amount of the money he receives will be used to cover the expenses of the event. They then should discuse what to do with the remaining money. Come to a conclusion together about where it will go to. I think many boys now get a lot of money and most of it is spent on shtusim. Remember he is only 13! He may have some concept of what $ is all about, but untill he has to support a wife and kids it isn't a reality. Good ideas of what to do with $:buy siforim or put it in the bank. How come many boys spend it all on "nothing" and come into marrage broke? Now I know that going to yeshivah all their life they don't have time to earn $(summer jobs pay bubkis and same for tutoring). So that is the only time they have money besides b-days chanuka etc. If they have no money when they get married how do they expect to start off in life? So, sometimes the parents help out and if they have nothing, then what?! Now my husband had very little due to the fact that he used all his bar mitzva $ to buy siforim and I was very happy bec if I had to buy it all now I would be broke! BH he has quite a collection! I am always running out of bookshelves! But if he used it on shtusim?! Why can't parents guide their son's on what to do with their bar mitzvah $?! Just bec they turn 13 doesn't entitle them to get thousands of dollars and spen it how they want. I figure the reason why people give a lot of money for a bar mitzva, more so than for a bas mitzva is bec the boy should buy siforim or put it away for the future when he will have to support a family. Otherwise why should a boy turning 13 as apposed to a girl turning 12 automatically have more $ comming to them?! People give it to the boy, NOT the parents of the boy! As dor wedding $ it is all for the chossen and kallah! True a wedding is expensive but this is for them to use to set up a new house which can be a lot too. Also, who says a wedding has to be expensive. The Rebbe wanted people to make smaller weddings and help out with the setting up of the house!

Motek

Sun, Dec 26 2004, 9:16 pm

sound contradictory to me:

Quote:

Tell the Bar Mitzva boy before hand that x amount of the money he receives will be used to cover the expenses of the event.

Quote:

People give it to the boy, NOT the parents of the boy!

if it's for the boy and his personal use, then why should the parents use it to make the bar mitzva? or do you think the boy should pay for his own simcha?

I agree of course, that the money should not be wasted. Parents are the authorities, and even though it's the boy's money, they should say what he can and cannot buy. Anyway, at that age, (some? all?) banks require a parent to be on the account too and withdrawals need signatures of both parent and boy.

AweSumThenSum

Wed, Dec 29 2004, 8:59 pm

I think the money belongs 100% to the boy. the money was given to him as a gift, and to nobody else. imagine if a boy doesn't get any money, but rather gets sforim and other gifts. should he return some of his gifts and get money back and give that money to his parents?????????
parents shoujld make a simcha that is within their budget, and should not rely on their child to help supplement, even if it is his own simcha.
a wedding is the same, in that the couple do not haveto give any money to their parents to help cover the expense of the wedding. however, the money they made could be used to purchase things for their home that their parents didnt buy before the wedding.

Pickle Lady

Wed, Dec 29 2004, 9:18 pm

I think it depends on the each family.

When it comes to a Bar Mitzva boy. What if the parents can't afford much. And the son wants to contribute his gifts towards the event. I know that for my bas mitzva I gladley told my parents to use my gifts towards the event.

I think a wedding is very different. Unless the family of the bride and groom pay for the wedding. In my case they didn't. So I gladly used the money to pay for my wedding, no one else was.

Yael

Wed, Dec 29 2004, 9:21 pm

I think that the gifts/ money the boy or couple receives is for them. plain and simple. if the parents cant afford it then they can also start asking for rent if they want to take money from their child, why should it be just b/c he got a large amount at one time the parents should cash in on it? to me it sounds like when you win the lottery and your family comes and says well you have to give me this x amount to pay for all your expenses growing up. nobody HAS to give anything, its up to you!! parents raise children with the idea that they give to the child and the child will in the future give to his own child. rarely does the relationship need to be reversed where the child must support the parents. if the child is sensitive and realizes that his parents are having financial difficulties it is up to him to offer them a gift of money to help out, it should not have anything to do with the fact that he just got a large sum. and the parents should definitly NOT ask for it.

Sunshine

Wed, Dec 29 2004, 9:58 pm

For all those that say it is the boys $ and he should keep all of it, what do you suggest he does with all that$? Do you say that he should decide how he spends it also? I mean if it is his money does that mean that only he has a say in what he wants to do with it? If he wants to waste it on foolish things his parents should let him? So if they tell him what he can do with it, is that a contradiction to the fact that it is his $?

Tefila

Thu, Jan 06 2005, 10:08 pm

Awesome I guess I wasn't clear you are right conc parents should make within their budget and not rely on gifts etc however that is if it is in a normal situation. But not when someone is in a position that they have to invite the whole community, wether it is b/c they are a rav on shlichus or b/c the community came together to support them during a tradgedy so they feel the need to compensate. And 450 people for one Bar mitzvah is not the norm and not many can afford it. That is where I am coming from conc a portion of the money recieved being given to parents and I think that is where Sunshine is coming from too.
I reiterate though, the boy has to be told b/4!
For a chasunah the money etc should go only to chosson and kallah I think!

rydys

Thu, Jan 06 2005, 10:22 pm

I think it is a chutzpa to ask a child to pay for his own Bar Mitzva. The parents plan it and put it together, why should he have to pay? I think a parent has an obligation to take care of a child's needs until he is independent. When I give a bar mitzva gift to a boy I give it for his use, not for his parents. I know chutzpa is a strong word, but I feel very strongly about this. A Bar Mitzva is L'halacha an adult and taking his money against his will (and what normal 13 year old _really_ wants to hand over his Bar Mitzva gifts to his parents?) in my opinion is stealing. I know there are situations where parents feel pressured to make huge expensive parties and this is in and of itself a problem which needs to be dealt with, but why should the bochur have to lose out bec. his parents want to impress their friends?

As for what he should do with the money, that depends on the family. Some parents allow their children to spend their money as they please so they will learn to handle money when they are older, and some think the way to teach this is to sit with the child and plan things out and require savings. That is fine, as long as the money remains in the child's account, not the parents.

Motek

Fri, Jan 07 2005, 12:51 pm

freilich - I can see that the situations you describe are unusual - some points to consider:

although a rav/shliach might have to invite everyone, and it's more than "have to," because a bar mitzva celebration is a "kiruv event" just as much as a Chanuka party, still - there might be ways of cutting the costs:

maybe they don't all have to be invited for a full meal, but the bar mitzva seuda can be for close relatives and friends

and just because a community came out in support, doesn't mean your hakaras ha'tov (gratitude) has to be expressed in feeding them all a full meal!

another thought - under these circumstances (shliach inviting community) - one can reason like this: if it would be up to us, we would be inviting 200 people, not 450, in which case, the bar mitzva would get far fewer gifts

since the only reason we're inviting 450 is because of our special circumstances and we can't personally afford it but it's part of outreach efforts, perhaps it's okay to use some of the money that those extra people will be giving in gifts to cover the cost of having them

alternatively - just the way you don't ask your kid to chip in to host your Chanuka event and Purim party, why should the bar mitzva boy pay to host 450 people for bar mitzva celebration?

one more point - maybe this is a shaila for a rav, for as rydys said - he's 13 and the gifts are his

Tefila

Fri, Jan 07 2005, 3:33 pm

What if I tell you not only do our children understand it is not unusual amongst the fruma world this practice especially in this situation! And what if I also told you that 450 people really 200 couples approx incl singles etc came together and purchased a brand new sefer torah that costed well over $30.000 that they paid for willingly in our time of need without us even asking ,how could we not offer a full meal. And what if I also told you we cut by doing our own invites on computer, myself, and our own bentchers, our displays too are handmade, the catering is what costs and yes we bring our kids to NY and do a mini bar mitzvah approx 80 people mainly family and with that they get all the gifts they recieve

So bottom line is it really depends!

And for someone to say they think it's a chutzpah without fully understanding the circumstances, that in itself is a major ...........!

supermom

Sun, Jan 09 2005, 4:12 pm

my husband when he was bar mitzvah his mother told him he should give her all his checks that he recieves to pay up the cost of the bar mitzvah which he did and he was left with barely anything you know how depressed he was he was looking foward in doing things with it. no matter what he was granted that money as a present what happens if someone gave you a present and your parents took it away from you you know how depressing it is? no matter what it is let them enjoy no matter what they spend it on it is part of growing up. you may not agree with me but this is my opionion. when I was bat mitzvah I gave most of my money to my parents because I wanted to but if they told me to hand it over with out my willingness I will feel horrible and my whole bat mitzvah would have been ruined.

rydys

Sun, Jan 09 2005, 11:00 pm

Freilich, I hear your situation is different and I feel for your past and present pain from the unmentioned tragedy. The fact remains that it is your debt of hakoras hatov to these wonderful people, not your son's debt. This is not the seuda of being makir tov to those people, its your son's one and only bar mitzva. As to what you say that it is common in frum communities, having lived in many communities around the world, both litvish and chassidish, I have never heard of this behavior before this thread. It is definitely a halachic shaila (I asked my husband who agreed with me) to take money from a bar mitzva boy. Even if you tell him beforehand, he can object and making him feel guilty for not wanting to give may be the aveira of Onaas Devorim.

BTW--in a situation such as yours, what is wrong with a fancy kiddush for those 450 people, and the bar mitzva seuda for close family only? Most people would understand that a person or a rov on shlichus cannot afford to make a bar mitzva for 450 people, even when he is exceptionally close to all of them.