afterlife | Imamother

entropy

Mon, Mar 16 2009, 3:15 am

I can give you the Rambam view in a nutshell:

The corporeal element ceases to exist.
The non-corporeal element (present only in the rightous) lives on eternally
One cannot hope to understand what this really means without a very profound study of God's Torah and God's creation.

Ruchel

Mon, Mar 16 2009, 7:35 am

There are (too) many views and stories. Generally you don't really learn about it. I learned most neshamas spend a time in Gehinom (long topic by itself) to perfect themselves, and normal people (= not Hitler, etc) won't stay more than 12 months (kaddish time). Then you get to go to Gan eden. If you haven't completed your task you need to come back (gilgul). I think someone is mentioned as gilgul of Adam ha rishon, someone else (Dina?) as the mother of Avraham avinu... can't remember where I heard all that. And this is why some rites name after the beloved dead.

We should concentrate on THIS life. What comes after, comes after! But many people need to know...

pomegranate

Mon, Mar 16 2009, 9:05 am

Ruchel wrote:

where did you learn about the twelve month idea?

skymile

Mon, Mar 16 2009, 12:18 pm

I heard about the 12 month thing while sitting shiva for my dad (zol zich meyen). it makes sense, because for the first year we had lots of "rules". (no music/simchas, saying kaddish - only men, constantly lighting a candle, not allowed to visit grave, etc...) but you should also know that "down here" 12 months is much shorter then "up there" (another thing I learned then).

greenfire

Mon, Mar 16 2009, 12:38 pm

I thought the 12 month thing was a given ... really 11 ... cause they say nobody needs the whole 12 months ... that is why a matzeiva/monument/unveiling is around then ... the neshoma doesn't rest completely till then ...

entropy

Tue, Mar 17 2009, 4:56 am

luv2cook4eva wrote:

but you should also know that "down here" 12 months is much shorter then "up there" (another thing I learned then).

Moreover, the whole concept of time as we know it in inapplicable to the olam haba.

StrongIma

Tue, Mar 17 2009, 5:25 am

chazal teach that the most a person is (normally) punished before reaching his place in Gan Eden is 12 months.

Imaonwheels

Wed, Mar 18 2009, 1:20 am

Olam haba and gan eden are not the same thing, though most are not aware. This is the reason for the apparent machloches between the Ramban and Rambam.

Gan Eden is the place where we go after the up to 12 mos we spend in Gehinom for cleansing. It is individual. Tzaddikim, including those who died al kiddush HaShem go straight to Gan Eden.

Olam HaBa is the place of souls in bodies after techias hametim.

However, souls that have to fix things or complete rectifications return here.

The source for all of this is the Rambam, Ramban and the Ariza"l. He also, in Sefer Hagilgulim, is the one who says which known figures are gilgulim of who.

The last stop in the days of Mashiach is a sould in a rectified body.

entropy

Wed, Mar 18 2009, 3:06 am

Imaonwheels wrote:

Olam HaBa is the place of souls in bodies after techias hametim.

However, souls that have to fix things or complete rectifications return here.

The source for all of this is the Rambam, Ramban and the Ariza"l. He also, in Sefer Hagilgulim, is the one who says which known figures are gilgulim of who.

The last stop in the days of Mashiach is a sould in a rectified body.

Not Rambam: Rambam is adamant that the Olam Haba is non-corporeal, and has nothing to do with yemot hamasiach, which for Rambam is an earthly political phenomenon.

Imaonwheels

Wed, Mar 18 2009, 3:45 am

Not entirely true. When I speak of the Rambam I am considering only the Mishna Torah. His views and the various interpretations of them in the Guide and other non halachic works are by his own testimony only opinion that can change but the MT is halacha pesuka. One can philosophy on the ideas in the Guide if one needs to but "devar HaShem zo halacha".

entropy

Wed, Mar 18 2009, 4:03 am

Imaonwheels wrote:

When I speak of the Rambam I am considering only the Mishna Torah. His views and the various interpretations of them in the Guide and other non halachic works are by his own testimony only opinion that can change but the MT is halacha pesuka. One can philosophy on the ideas in the Guide if one needs to but "devar HaShem zo halacha".

absolutely.
In mishneh torah, sefer hamada, hilchot teshuva 8:3, he writes:
העולם הבא--אין בו גוף וגווייה, אלא נפשות הצדיקים בלבד, בלא גוף כמלאכי השרת.

Imaonwheels

Wed, Mar 18 2009, 10:33 am

Have to go back to my Pirke Avos notes (Kol Israel yesh lahem chelek). I am sure that is where I have it.