Seminary/Yeshiva in Eretz Yisrael (merged)

Motek

Sun, Mar 12 2006, 3:44 pm

the Jan.Feb. issue of the Jewish Observer has an article about the things SOME yeshiva and seminary students do while away from home and learning in Eretz Yisrael, supposedly shteiging away and having mamosh a spiritual aliya that will affect them l'olam va'ed, things like hanging out boys and girls, boys going to Eilat.

interestingly, the article says that a father consulted with a prominent rosh yeshiva in the U.S. (no name given) who told him, "This is not a problem with the children from our type of homes. It's in the more modern-cultured homes that it's found." And the article goes on to say that the rosh yeshiva is wrong! (just makes me wonder whether he has daas Torah or not ... )

so my question for those who went to E.Y. or know those who did is: are/were you aware of these problems? are parents naive to think their dear children were sitting and learning like good boys and girls when some of them are partying?

I remember having a conversation with a woman once who said no way would she be sending her child there, for this very reason, she felt it was spiritually dangerous.

My b-I-l who learned in E.Y. tells of a boy(s) in the Mir going off with shiksas shock

and nobody the wiser

does he tell the girl he marries? betcha he doesn't ...

shira

Sun, Mar 12 2006, 4:43 pm

I work for a cell phone company that rents cell phones to many of these sem/yeshiva students for the year. We get the itemized bills and if the person called is also from our company, I can reference it Twisted Evil

Please don't missunderstand me, we do not spend our time trying to figure out which boys and girls are calling each other but I have had enough situations where that info became abundantly clear based on the volume of calls to a particular number. There is one yeshiva that we service, a yeshivish one, that requires the parents to sign a waiver that the Rosh Yeshiva has the right to all of the boys itemized bills. I don't know if he actually checks them or not but I bet that keeps his guys in check at least a little bit.
I went to a seminary where most of the girls were pretty solid so I can't say that I was exposed to these issues as a student (plus I'm VERY naive anyway Wink

)but my feeling is, a good barometer to determine whether or not your child is a good candidate for the israel experience is- if you can't trust your kid when they are living under your roof, don't send him/her 6000 miles away! Some students benefit so much from the experience but for some its purely a case of yatza schara b'hefsaido. You really have to know your kid. Just my $.02.

red sea

Sun, Mar 12 2006, 4:50 pm

As far as I know from my experience in Israel, which was roughly a decade past, girls pretty much stayed with what they were doing before they went, if they were a no boys girl, it continued, if they were a mixer, they continued, exceptions- seen a handful plus get frummer and stopped socializing with boys. Could be the girls schools have better supervision or that being out of the parents home takes away the need for rebellion, don't know. Boys yeshivas- well, I have heard in certain yeshivas really bad stuff but those are the really large ones with no supervision for the most part. In the other direction, when I flew to sem we had about 5 group flights on the plane one of which was headed to n'vai in telzstone, they were drunk and really rowdy, full of tatoos, piercings, long hair, green hair, get the pic, well when my sem had a shabbaton in that city in the spring some of the girls recognized these boys from their home towns walking in the street and their jaws just dropped, white shirts, black hats, etc- I think my point is that its really the school you choose to put your child in _ not "Israel" as this huge thing machine causing stuff.

queen

Sun, Mar 12 2006, 6:00 pm

I agree with Red Sea that according to how your kid is before going, is a barometer of what might happen in Israel.
However I will add- sending them with a lot of cash, (you'd be surprised how much these kids spend, it's unreal!!!!) and access to a cell phone (which might be a necessity for safety??) DOES aid these kids to fall into the cracks.

Having been on the staff side of a prominent seminary in E"Y, I can say that the principals work very hard to keep the girls busy and accounted for.

MMEC123

Sun, Mar 12 2006, 9:06 pm

I would say most of the time, parents know their children. They send their troubled ones away either because 1) they think E"Y will "cure" them, or 2) because they don't want to deal with their child or don't know how to deal with their child so they send them off so they don't have to see what's going on (or a combination of the two). I will agree that most people don't suddenly change when they go away. Unfortunately, the ones who are "at risk" to start with, if not watched carefully, can turn out much worse and further "down" then they were to start with!

klotzkashe

Sun, Mar 12 2006, 10:21 pm

I was in israel just under 5 years ago - Of course there were girls who talked to guys, went out with guys, went on vacations with guys - but they were the minority (1-2%) of all the Chabad sem girls that I knew.

MOst other girls did go to concerts, but there wasn't any mingling of the sexes just because they were at a concert.

You'd definitely say that the benefits of sending your child to israel would definitely outweigh any risks (seeing as they are so minimal)...THen again, if you know your child you'll know what they are vulnerable to. The problem is the parents who have no inkling of what their kids are like because they are grossly uninvolved in their children's lives.

Though I'd say that if you are sending you kid to a reputable place that is known for keeping it's eyes on it's talmidim..you won't regret it. The problem is yeshivas and sems that give HUGE amounts of time off (like everyday 4 hours when they're only 1/2 hr away from yerushalayim), that are the problems.

Also, it's important to make sure that kids go away with good freinds who are good influences - sending your kid to a school in israel with a bunch of kids from hometown that can get up to mischief will only make your kid be grouped with them bc they're from the same place and eventually yeah, your kid would hang out with them and r'l do the crazy stuff they woudl do...

shabbatiscoming

Mon, Mar 13 2006, 12:35 am

I would have to agree and disagree. I went to seminary in 97 - 98 so almost a decade ago (wow, doesnt feel like it was that long ago:>)
I would have to say that I was in a seminary that was not in yerushaliyim and that by itself helped the fact that the girls in my year of sem were very grounded girls, they knew why they were in Israel, to learn Yehadut in EVERY way possible, in class, tiyulim, and other (just hangin out with other girls made that possible as well).
I think that they bad stuff that goes on in yeshivot and seminaries in Israel has to do with a few things. one, it has to do with the other students that are there that year too (unfortunately it only takes one person to be a ring leader for good or bad) second, I think that it has to do with the fact of "oh, im bored with this learning, lets go find something "better" to do. what the students find to do depends on the yehiva/sem.
it also, I think obviously, depends on the home life of the shild before they came. if the parents can enstill in their children the correct values, well, that is a WONDERFUL place to start and you hope for the best. but, having said that, it is not always the case either. I know of boys that had wonderful home lives, emotionaly, religiously, family wise etc and they came to Israel and well, they fell DOOOWN. its a very hard and bad situation.
this past week, in the In Jerusalem section of the Jerusalem Post in Israel, there was an article about just this, about american yehiva students that come to Israel and fall into the drug crack. it was a VERY VERY sad article to read...did any of you read it?...There is much work to be done with our children....May HaShem help us as well...

PinkandYellow

Mon, Mar 13 2006, 1:30 am

I just want to comment on what ytwh1 said about yeshiva students coming and "falling into the drug crack" (was that supposed to be a bad pun?!). I am very close to a Rebbe and his rebbetzin that work in a yeshiva where a very large % of boys are on drugs. Alot of these "crackheads" are from yeshivish frum families. The rebbetzin said so many of these boys come and parents think they get involved in drugs in E"Y however she has heard from almost all of these boys themselves that they were involved in the same stuff in the states however their parents were totally clueless, had no idea what they were doing or what they were about even though the parents thought they knew their children so well.
My point is, alot of these kids don't turn bad in E"Y, alot of these kids come bad and p.s.-these yeshivos are really acting like drug and drinking rehab centers and alot of the kids come out, if not yeshivish, at least decently frum.

suomynona

Mon, Mar 13 2006, 1:55 am

I am not talking about Kids at Risk here. But from what I hear, it seems like in a lot of diras of boys from regular, pretty frum yeshivos, at least one guy has a laptop with a dvd player & the boys watch movies regularly. These are regular guys who come home & do the kollel thing for a few years after they get married.

I was pretty shocked when I heard about this. But maybe I am naive.

PinkandYellow

Mon, Mar 13 2006, 2:22 am

If you know for a fact these aren't kids at risk, then from my experience a prob can be that there isn't any acceptable outlet, recreation wise, for learning guys. For ex. I asked my husband- why doesn't the kollel have a football team? Alot of the yeshivas here do and the mir banned playing on these teams. I think thats wrong. Just bec you are a learning guy doesn't mean you shouldn't have kosher ways to relax. When I lived in America, my dh followed sports and for all the bitul torah I still "let" him. Kollel guys, learning guys, yeshivish guys- the point is they need to be able to do something besides learn.

suomynona

Mon, Mar 13 2006, 3:24 am

I don't know if that's the reason here. Most people I know in the Mir know how to have a good time. They're always going out to eat. Every time there's a shalom zachor or kiddush in the area, they go & get high. A lot of them read novels, which is also not the best outlet, but I'm just trying to point out that I don't think they lack outlets.
And believe me, they do PLENTY besides learn.

PinkandYellow

Mon, Mar 13 2006, 4:24 am

I understand that the games were banned bec of girls but don't you think they can ban the girls instead? Like not allow them into the stadium? Maybe have games between kollels and only kollel wives allowed?
And I don't think eating is an outlet. You say they are reading novels and that is an outlet. What type of novels? if they aren't clean then who said they're not at risk and if they are clean what's wrong with that? Same with dvd's. I'm not saying I allow them in my house but if a yeshiva guy watches something innocent then maybe that is better then being out on the streets.

suomynona

Mon, Mar 13 2006, 4:54 am

I don't think the Mir has control over who comes to the games & anyway, I doubt they approve of couples socializing.

As far as the books & movies being clean, everyone has their own definition of clean & maybe your definition isn't mine. But they are not reading classics and they are not watching Harry Potter. Some people don't consider a book or movie un-clean unless it's very explicit. I personally don't consider most contemporary novels & movies too clean. In my opinion, a movie that revolves around or contains romance & inapproprately dressed women is not appropriate for a frum male to watch.
If you do agree with me, then the reason they are not considered at risk is because they dont' have girlfriends, aren't doing drugs & they aren't rebelling. They plan on staying frum & living the lifestyle. Are they doing something wrong? In my opinion, yes.

chavamom

Mon, Mar 13 2006, 9:18 am

MosheDovid'sMom wrote:

The rebbetzin said so many of these boys come and parents think they get involved in drugs in E"Y however she has heard from almost all of these boys themselves that they were involved in the same stuff in the states however their parents were totally clueless, had no idea what they were doing or what they were about even though the parents thought they knew their children so well.

Or the parents got wind of it and sent them off to E'Y thinking that would cure them.

Motek

Sun, Apr 30 2006, 2:09 pm

The March issue of the J.O. had a follow-up article which said that the previous article just presented the "tip of the iceberg," and that "the spiritual dangers are both much more subtle and much more grave" than the previous author's article depicted.

He says that even when children live at home, it's almost impossible to shelter them from negative influences and once they're in E.Y. it's even harder. Away from home, the yetzer hara, which is very active in young adults, will exert a great influence.

He says parents should not supply their children with cell-phones, iPods, palms - anything that will give them access to unwanted influences. Also, too much money is a negative factor. Credit cards and monthly budgets of more than $100 are an invitation to trouble.

He says we must foresee every possible danger. The nisyonos begin even before the movies start to play during the flight.

Where are they for Shabbos? Fending for themselves? In yeshiva/school? What about bein ha'zemanim, chol ha'moed? Are they allowed to tour by themselves?

He disagrees with those of you who posted along the lines of most people don't suddenly change when they go away and says:

"Do not be content with past reports and performances. The yetzer hara can change everything overnight!"

Scary!

shabbatiscoming

Mon, Feb 05 2007, 6:08 am

that was a VERY sad article to read. I live in israel and go into yerushaliyim quiet often and I see such students (girls and boys) looking as if they have just woken up out of a 43 year sleep. its quiet terrible and another sad thing about that is that israelis are giving americans an overall bad name because of those students.

I have noticed that the majority of cases of drugs and the like that I have heard of are moreso in the more yeshivish and charedi yeshivot as apposed to the more dati leumi / modern orthodox ones. that is just what I have noticed. I am sure that it is every where, but that is what I see.

I also notice that it has become much more prevalant in the recent years. when I came to israel for seminary (10 years ago) I did not know or see as much as I hear about now a days.

I am not sure that there has to be no sleep out nights aloud or even a total overall ruling of the faculty on the students, as in not letting them leave every, in that case, they could just skip the experience of coming to israel for a year. I think that there are two factors here: one is that the students themselves have to know if they are really learning material or will it just get in the way of their partying. if it is the second thing, then they should not come to israel. the other factor, I think, is that the yeshivot and seminaries have to make the learning seem very exciting and something that the students will want to do, not with punishment if they dont, but a positive reinforcement for going to class and I dont mean anything like stickers or a trip to the hermon. I just mean making the classes interesting so that the kids WANT to go to the classes.