Seminary/Yeshiva in Eretz Yisrael (merged)

tovarena

Wed, Aug 27 2008, 10:55 am

I think the question becomes what your goals are for sending girls to seminary.

If it's a higher level of learning and/or lifelong friendships, then they could certainly achieve those in the U.S. Indeed, some might say the learning could even be better without the novelty of being in E'Y and wanting to get out and explore the country.

If it's the independence of a girl being on her own for the first time, it might require seminaries opening up in more "out of town" areas with an emphasis towards a girl not going to the sem in her own hometown.

If it's the opportunity for the travel within Israel, they could get that through, say, a month-long summer program with a smaller cost than sem for the year. The summer program could even take place after the year of sem to tie in the various lessons learned to the sightseeing done.

I was in E'Y for seminary over 15 years ago. It was quite a bit cheaper then and it was an incredible year and I gained A LOT from it. But I don't see any reason that the year-long program and the Israel experience couldn't be separated to save parents the massive financial burden.

Imaonwheels

Wed, Aug 27 2008, 11:19 am

I am an Israeli host family, often. So moms know:
1. Most of the horror stories are way exaggerated, most kids are free every other Shabbos because that is the request of the students. They want to see the country and meet Israelis. They like the thrill of eating by us or going to Hebron for Shabbos. I am speaking of charedi students, who may not get trips other than a water park or kevrei tzaddikim.

2. You cannot get the same Torat EY feeling in chutz, the non Jewish culture and influence is too strong.

3. Make sure the "expenses" are what is expected and not what kids want. Many a mosad provide meals but kids prefer to pick at the food and then go out for pizza as a social thing. There is no need to use cabs in Israel except for emergencies, none what so ever. Buses are plentiful and cheap.

I am disgusted that the chutz student pays way more than the Israeli one. Try seeing if your chosen sem is part of MASA, the 6 mo - year follow up to birthright. Where I work is.

Their list for religious girls.

manhattanmom

Wed, Aug 27 2008, 11:24 am

I went to a High School where at least 2/3 of my graduating class did go to Israel and the school spent a lot of time and effort working with girls and their families to find the best choice of seminary. Going to Israel was NOT an option for me (as my parents just said absolutely not!) I looked into some "out of town" seminaries within the US but ended up staying home. I went to a half day seminary in NY which gave me a great social life and I started Brooklyn College at the same time (in the afternoon and evenings.) There were at least 10 girls in my seminary class who were in College with me at that time....
I remember being upset and really sad when all my friends left for Israel. But I did get used to it at home. I do feel that I didn't have any bit of an "amazing all--high seminary experience" like I heard about for 4 years of High School and was very upset by it initially. I basically felt that I left HS and then went out into the real world--the same thing that my friends would be doing the following year. When my friends were all coming home and looking into schools, jobs, etc. I do remember feeling "way ahead of them" because I had already decided on a college major, had a job, etc....
Looking back, I still feel like I may have missed a great year--my sister was in seminary last year (out of town US) and it was definitely something that she needed--but looking at how my life fell into place, I don't think it's really something that I needed to help me "find a shidduch, find a job" etc.
I do think that often girls need another year to find themselves, make friendships, etc. but I do not think Eretz Yisroel is the only way that can be done. Yes, I'm sure you cannot compare a year of living in Israel to a year of living away from home within the US but sometimes all the girl needs is to be away for a year to "settle down" away from her parents, away from her hometown--just to have a "dorm experience that could really occur anywhere."

GetReal

Wed, Aug 27 2008, 11:32 am

In my sem, there were girls who went out to eat every night. It was TOTALLY not necessary, just something they enjoyed. The sem provided good food, and healthy too. taxis vs buses were a decision usually made by nervous parents. I started the year with only taxis, and convinced my parents that it made no sense. The phone we were told by the sem is mandatory b/c of security, so the could locate us if necessary. No trup to Europe. We were off every other Shabbos, adn transportation plus gift did add up, but it was wonderful to see israel this way and experience real Israeli life, as opposed to organized trips with a big group of Americans.

Sem was a great year for me. part of it could have been the same in America - the learning, friends, etc. But I feel that the kedusha of E"Y helped it be a year of learning and spiritual growth, we had classes from some really special people, etc.

Imawoman

Wed, Aug 27 2008, 12:02 pm

I never calculated how much I spent during my year in Israel, but it definitely was not $10 000!

My seminary provided lunch, so I had to buy breakfast and dinner food. Often I made my own lunch as well (much healthier that way). A big part of my budget was allotted to the wonderfully inexpensive and fresh fruits and vegetables - when they were in season.

The only restaurant in the yeshuv was a pizza place. We sometimes went there.

Every Thursday night to Motzei Shabbos we were "kicked out" of our seminary. If I stayed in Yerushalayim, I had to buy food - usually nothing more than a sandwich. Most shabboses I was with family and did not have to spend money.

I mainly took buses, but there were times when a taxi was necessary. Some of those times I was with 3-4 other girls and we split the cost.

I did have a cell phone, but then again, I've had a cell phone since grade 11.

I don't know of anyone who toured Europe during their stay in Israel. The exception would be the girls who actually lived in Europe and went home for the occasional family simcha.

I loved seminary. It was an amazing experience and I don't regret going at all.

Fox

Wed, Aug 27 2008, 3:32 pm

There are two key issues that concern me as a parent:

The first is the intense pressure in many high schools to send girls to seminary regardless of whether the girl and her parents can afford seminary and regardless of the appropriateness for the individual girl. Many litvish high schools "encourage" seminary in EY so strongly that they lose sight of the needs of individuals. While the horror stories about seminary attendance being linked to shidduchim may be somewhat apocryphal, no parent wants to take a chance on his/her own daughter's future. Thus, the push for seminary takes on overtones of blackmail.

The second problem is the degree to which seminary tuition, which I'm told is currently around $20,000, takes away from funds available to our struggling day schools. Even with financial aid, most parents have to scrape to pay the tuition, plane tickets, etc.

Over a decade ago, I worked with post-secondary students coming out of seminary, and I was shocked at how seminary was marketed and sold. I suggested informally to my co-workers that I expected a backlash within a few years. It's taken longer than I expected, but it seems to have arrived.

BTW, I'm not against girls going to EY for some kind of post-high school educational program, and I think spending time in EY is valuable in its own right. But I feel that the current system is simply not realistic for the majority of families.

chaylizi

Wed, Aug 27 2008, 3:42 pm

Imaonwheels wrote:

your link comes up with the site for Masa, but no search results.

ClaRivka

Wed, Aug 27 2008, 3:57 pm

I wasnt planning on going to Seminary after Highschool. I was planning on going to Maalot on NY or Balti but my brother convinced me that it was an experience not to be missed. So I went to the most messed up seminary out there. Shouldve gone to Hadar....o well. I can say that I hated it but then I wouldnt be where I was today in my hashkafa and I wouldnt know Eretz Yisrael like the back of my hand or have such a strong connection to Hashem and the holy places over there.
When it comes time for my daughters to go to sem they will not be going to EY for sem unless we live there. If we dont live there they will prob go to Bais Yaakov Intensive and live with relatives...

Raisin

Wed, Aug 27 2008, 6:18 pm

Fox wrote:

Let me ask some questions:

1. Based on experiences, do you -- as parents -- genuinely feel that most seminaries provide enough supervision?

2. Based on experiences, do you think that girls are encouraged to go to seminary even though they might not be mature enough to benefit or avoid unsavory situations?

3. Do you feel that the current $20,000 tuition is a good value? Not whether you personally had a good experience, but whether you had an experience worth $20,000 of someone's money . . .

Q. how much do boys yeshivos cost per annum?
and is it easier to get scholarships for boys yeshivos? is it easier for boys yeshivos to fundraise so they can ask for less money?

why is this only a girls issue?

chaylizi

Wed, Aug 27 2008, 6:39 pm

Raisin wrote:

Fox wrote:

because way more people agree that money for learning post high school should first be spent on boys. maybe because they have a mitzvah to learn?

Fox

Wed, Aug 27 2008, 6:45 pm

Raisin wrote:

Although I can't speak for every seminary versus every yeshiva gedola, I can add a few comments:

Yeshivas gedola (as opposed to mesivtas) are generally a larger enterprise. They may have a kollel, provide community services, or occupy related roles in their communities. As a result, they have ongoing fundraising operations to offset the expenses of maintaining the physical plant, pay rebbeim, etc. Most yeshivas, in my experience, do offer their own scholarships and/or qualify boys to receive U.S. federal financial aid. Many yeshivas within a boy's home community may even allow him to sit and learn at no cost if he truly can't afford tuition.

Seminaries, from my observation, seem to be private enterprises. While they are not officially "for profit", I am disturbed by the number that seem to be little more than family businesses. That's not to say that they don't provide a good experience, but there is a certain lack of transparency in many, especially some of the smaller ones. Most seminary programs only qualify for government financial aid if the student applies through a partner U.S. institution (such as Touro or TI).

I'm not against the seminary experience per se, but there should be some alternatives for a girl who can't afford the tuition or for girls who need more supervision, etc.

BusyBeeMommy

Wed, Aug 27 2008, 8:29 pm

The tuition is undoubtedly sky high, but from the seminary that I went to, I can understand why. We went on tiyulim averaging twice a month, whether it be kivrei tzaddikim or mekomei kedusha. Security gun-men always accompanied us and we had comfortable buses. We were never taken to amusement parks, swimming in beaches, water parks or the like. It was purely educational. The tour guides were very well versed in tanach and it was all connected to what we were learning in navi. We were served 3 meals a day plus snacks and the kitchen was opened a lot. Nobody ever went hungry. Most shabosim were "out" shabosim, save for 3 or 4 shabosim during the year when it was mandatory to stay in and 4 shabosim that the sem took us all out as a shabaton. BUT - and a very big BUT - it was optional to stay in EVERY SINGLE SHABBOS. Was it the "cool" thing to do? Probably not, but if you wanted to stay in the dorm for shabbos, you had 3 meals and a madricha. They would never turn away any girl. I even remember once how only 2 girls wanted to stay in for a shabbos, so instead of the kitchen having to cook for just 2 girls, they were placed by the aim bayit. Additionally, there was always a security guard outside the sem that was armed and connected to the security station. Another cost was the utilities. We had central air (some of u may think it unecessary but American raised girls need it), and in the winter the dorm was always warm. There were never any complaints of no heat. We had hot water round the clock, not like some other seminaries where you could only take a shower bet the hours of 2 - 4... The expenses really add up.

I feel that I have gained tremendously from my seminary experience. I've learned invaluable advice for marriage and grew a lot. Do I think all of the higher learning was necessary? No. I think I could've used some baking or sewing classes more to prepare me for right now. It was my first time in E"Y, and it felt more real Living there, not just touring. It was also very exhilarating to see many different families leading different lifestyles and I certainly benefited from that experience. I was able to formulate what my values were for my own family to come.

I don't know if I would send my DD 2 sem (she's only 17 months at this point). Even if the expenses add up, it's a tremendous amount of money and it is definitley not necessary. Unfortunately, much of society has made it seem to be one, which is really sad. Maybe I'll use the money instead to start her off in married life. I probably wouldn't mind taking the $20,000 now instead of then.

One last point, (to those who are still reading), is that seminary has changed from what it was only 10 years ago. The girls are a lot more spoiled today. Whereas 10 years ago, you only spoke 2 ur parents once a week, and after curfew, you would sit around bonding w/ the girls in sem, it's not like that today. W/ the world of instant communications, girls have a lot less time to make friends. After curfew, they sit there chatting w/ their friend from America, or school friends in other sems. Life is a lot more complex, girls are more accustomed to eating out and E"y is a lot more westernized, offering almost e/t that there is in America. This alters the experience that seminary was intented to be originally to a great degree.

momto4

Thu, Aug 28 2008, 12:24 am

One last point, (to those who are still reading), is that seminary has changed from what it was only 10 years ago. The girls are a lot more spoiled today. Whereas 10 years ago, you only spoke 2 ur parents once a week, and after curfew, you would sit around bonding w/ the girls in sem, it's not like that today. W/ the world of instant communications, girls have a lot less time to make friends. After curfew, they sit there chatting w/ their friend from America, or school friends in other sems. Life is a lot more complex, girls are more accustomed to eating out and E"y is a lot more westernized, offering almost e/t that there is in America. This alters the experience that seminary was intented to be originally to a great degree.

this is a very interesting and perceptive point. I was in seminary about 12 yrs ago and it was amazing. I truly gained from the experience. I really grew B'H. now it is a different story unfortunately. my girls are still young but I hope that when their time comes to think about seminary there will still be good options out there that have the right intentions in mind and that is to help these girls grow.

shabbatiscoming

Thu, Aug 28 2008, 5:59 am

Imawoman wrote:

did you go to Orot?

Imaonwheels

Thu, Aug 28 2008, 6:02 am

The girls and guys we get our here now and come from most of the mainline yeshivos and sems (only Neve rejects us). They tend to be serious about learning and the guys give serious consideration to whether or not they want to stay. Many of the girls aren't lacking in frumkeit but tend to look at Israel in "I'll die if I can't get my favorite potato chips" eyes. There is a frum flirt scene, but this are mostly kids who there school puts them up in Y-m apartments.

The fact is that if you are that type then there are no shortage of guys in NY and no shortage of places to hide. Sem in Israel will not turn you into that.

I think the experience is still necessary but I always suggest that people send to a sem that has regular Israeli students as well. That will cut way down on the luxuries, help the atmosphere. Also try sending out of Y-m and its concentration of Anglo students. The last time I heard a price was $13,000. Are you guys sure 20,000 is normal? In Israel it is paid monthly, maybe some deal can be worked out.

It is hard to see the objection when sem for Israeli girls is 3-4 years at university level tuition. They come out of it with their degree though. That is another possible option. Have her come on an A-1 visa and do the full degree program at an Israeli sem, two birds with one stone. The $3,500/yr tuition will beat an US price except maybe community college.