Jewish History | Imamother

amother

Sun, Jun 21 2009, 6:50 pm

I have some questions about Jewish History, especially concerning the Talmudic Era and the 2nd churban. The only existing contemporary source is Josephus Flavius, and together with Talmudic sources, this is what we base historia lessons on. However, can the Talmud be used reliably as a history book? Aside from the fact that the Church has messed with it repeatedly through the ages, removing things they wanted (as well as us Jews removing things that we didn't want the Church to misinterpret or read), the Talmud wasn't actually written as a record of history -- it's halacha. Any insights?

cassandra

Sun, Jun 21 2009, 7:09 pm

Any historical source should be taken with a grain of salt. Josephus wasn't exactly unbiased himself. I think what you mean to say is that Josephus is the only secondary source-- that he wrote down history as he saw it happen, but really we are better off treating Josephus as a primary source-- someone who recorded what he saw as he saw it but wasn't necessarily concerned with being historically accurate. The Talmud is also a primary source-- we can learn a lot about the time period from what is written in the Gemara but it won't have the final word on what actually happened (this notion may be theologically problematic for some). To do that we need to consider all available sources including other primary writings and archeological information and then piece those together to come up with a plausible history. Certain things are very straightforward and other things are more controversial, all based on what evidence is out there.

amother

Wed, Oct 14 2009, 11:40 am

If you still have questions about Jewish history, please let me know (I teach Jewish history in a yeshiva girls' high school).

We don't use Josephus as a sole supporting source. We use him as a primary source and rely as well on other corroborating sources (of which there are some, although they don't always focus on the Jewish aspect -- more that they deal with the historical context from the perspective of other cultures, and we use the information to cross-reference what is said in Josephus as well as in the Gemara, l'havdil).

Frum

Mon, Oct 19 2009, 4:37 pm

Even if a source is biased, it's still a source that can teach us something.

There are various sources that teach us about the era of bayis sheni. One source I use with my students is the story of the asara harugei malchus from the machzor of Yom Kippur. Even if it is not a literal account of what happened, it is still a valuable source. In the same vain the talmud can also serve as a valuable source.

AM, I also teach jewish history. It would be nice of you could PM me (I can't PM you) so we can exchange ideas!

freidasima

Mon, Oct 19 2009, 5:24 pm

Frum, do you also teach history in a girls high school? I always loved history but went into psychology instead. I don't know much about the historical period you are discussing but remember my teachers always saying that Josephus is the best source we have although we can definitely use parts of the talmud as history.