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Motek




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 06 2005, 8:40 am
yehudis wrote:
Question for Motek about women learning: Is it the Lubavitcher Rebbe's chidush that women are obligated to learn Torah in order to fulfill the mitzvah of loving Hashem?


no
what he said is that EVERYBODY, men and women, must learn CHASSIDUS in order to fulfill the mitzva of loving Hashem, because Chassidus is the study of G-d

Quote:
Also, among the subjects which a woman must know is Pnimiyus HaTorah, Torah’s mystic dimension. A woman is obligated to fulfill the mitzvos of knowing G-d, loving Him, fearing Him, and the like. Indeed, the obligation to fulfill these mitzvos is constant, incumbent upon us every moment of the day. The fulfillment of these mitzvos is dependent on the knowledge of spiritual concepts as implied by the verse, "Know the G-d of your fathers and serve Him with a full heart." The study of Pnimiyus HaTorah is necessary to achieve this knowledge.


Quote:
Chabad women learn gemara, right? Is that a new thing?


some high schools and seminaries do

it's a relatively new thing

then again, poring over Rambans and Sefornos in Bais Yaakovs is a relatively new thing too

the point the Rebbe makes is - if girls/women are engaging their minds in intellectual pursuits such as algebra, in the secular studies department, then they should be engaging their minds in Torah pursuits

here's an interesting (and very lengthy, you might want to print it out) analysis of the issues relating to women and Torah study which addresses questions like:

can a woman be taught Torah?
is a woman exempt from learning Torah or prohibited from doing so?
does this refer to the Written Torah? the Oral Torah?
Should women recite the Torah blessings?

http://www.aishkodesh.org/arti.....gno=1

Quote:
when you say that there is a lot that women need to learn, what exactly are you referring to?


here's a partial answer which also includes what the Lubavitcher Rebbe says about women and Torah study:

http://www.sichosinenglish.org/essays/69.htm

Quote:
Torah law requires a woman to study all the laws and concepts necessary to observe the mitzvos which she is obligated to fulfill. This encompasses a vast scope of knowledge, including the laws of Shabbos, Kashrus, Taharas Hamishpachah, and many other areas of Jewish law. Indeed, many men would be happy if their Torah knowledge would be as complete.


I'll add: laws about shemiras ha'lashon, ona'as devarim, honesty, brachos over food, tefilla

the 6 Constant Mitzvos incumbent upon everybody: G-d's oneness, negating all but G-d, G-d's unity, love of Hashem, fear of Hashem, do not stray after your hearts and eyes
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Tefila




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 06 2005, 9:05 am
Quote:
then again, poring over Rambans and Sefornos in Bais Yaakovs is a relatively new thing too

A very good point motek. I don't really have a source for what I am going to say except that one of my brothers Rolling Eyes said there is an atchual shailah with women learning gemoro. Could also be from hilchos shtus you know! Smile
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Motek




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 06 2005, 9:07 am
that shaila is covered in the article in the link in my previous post
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gryp




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 06 2005, 9:08 am
in high schol we learned ain yaakov- our teacher gave us copies and read it for us. if we wanted to look inside we could have....
but it was fun to learn all the stories taking place in the times of the second bais hamikdash.
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Tefila




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 06 2005, 9:35 am
Thanks Motek, Rolling Eyes should read well next time instead of just leafing thru I guess
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yehudis




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 06 2005, 11:49 am
Thanks Motek. Very interesting! I'll have to read the articles you mentioned when I have more time.
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yehudis




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Jan 08 2005, 10:01 pm
I read the articles that Motek cited -- very interesting!

I have several thoughts, questions, etc.

First of all, Rav Weinberger's article and the Chabad article seem to contradict each other regarding the Lubavitcher Rebbe's view of women's learning. Rav Weinberger cites the Lubavitcher Rebbe as the only one who holds that women had _always_ been allowed to learn Oral Torah, as long as they only learned the practical parts that pertained to them. The other rabbis who allow the learning of Oral Torah, or even in-depth learning of Written Torah, only allow it for this generations when all women are proven "exceptional" due to self-motivation.

The Chabad article, OTOH, doesn't bring that opinion, but only talks about how women can have it better in this day and age (very feminist, BTW Smile).

So my question is: what has actually changed? Is it what women do or did women themselves change radically?

If women changed, then can we say that "nature changed" and the Rambam's view no longer applies, just as his recommendations on what to eat no longer apply?

Or if it is only what women do, then wouldn't it be true that if a thousand years ago, they would have educated women in the same way we do now, they would not have been prone to trivialities and tiflus? And if so, why didn't they educate them? Or is it a good thing for a woman to be trivial?

And another question to think about. Suppose a woman did not have young children to care about (let's say she's in her fifties and her youngest spends all day in school). Suppose this woman had to decide what to do with her time. Would it be better for her to occupy herself with math or science on a high level or to learn Torah? And what would be more intellectually stimulating?

Why would you think that math or science is better? First of all, AFAIK, there is no shaila about a woman studying exact sciences while there is a shaila with her studying Torah in depth. And second, with math or science a woman can actually make a contribution to the field -- prove a theorem, do an experiment which gives us new information about the world, invent a cure for a disease, etc. And what can she contribute in Torah? She can't pasken halacha, she can't really come up with a chidush that will be accepted, etc. She could learn and enjoy it, but wouldn't she be contributing more to the world by being involved in secular science?

Anyway, I'd love to hear what you all think about this.
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Motek




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 09 2005, 5:09 pm
Quote:
So my question is: what has actually changed? Is it what women do or did women themselves change radically?


very interesting topic

if you follow the Rebbe's sichos, there's definitely the Rebbe's clear presentation that things have changed in numerous ways, chinuch for children, chinuch for women, non jews and their interactions with Jews and the world, the nature of Jews today, everything! and all these changes have to do with the impending Geula and preparations for it

Quote:
If women changed, then can we say that "nature changed" and the Rambam's view no longer applies, just as his recommendations on what to eat no longer apply?


the Rebbe said that nature changed (in those very words) regarding children and chinuch and why the Rambam's chinuch guidelines no longer apply

impt. note: not that the halacha changed, but that the metzius (reality) changed

the Rebbe didn't use those words regarding women, but definitely said so in other words, which is why 1000 yrs. ago this wasn't done and couldn't be done, because it was spiritually premature

Quote:
And another question to think about. Suppose a woman did not have young children to care about (let's say she's in her fifties and her youngest spends all day in school). Suppose this woman had to decide what to do with her time. Would it be better for her to occupy herself with math or science on a high level or to learn Torah? And what would be more intellectually stimulating?


based on what I've read of the Rebbe's teachings, I would say her primary obligations are to the Jewish people at large, in spreading Torah, Yiddishkeit, Chasidus, as well as her own Torah study

re math and science - as discussed in the secular studies thread, these studies are metamei (pollute) the mind unless used in the service of one's avodas Hashem or to improve one's parnasa in order to further serve Hashem

Quote:
what can she contribute in Torah? She can't pasken halacha, she can't really come up with a chidush that will be accepted, etc.


the Rebbe emphasized: if you know (only) alef, then teach it to someone who doesn't even know that
when a woman learns Torah she can contribute her knowledge by teaching it to others, besides the vast benefits in simply learning Torah: it's a mitzva, and it's the only mitzva in which a person's mind unites, as it were, with G-d's mind

which reminds me, Partners in Torah (a project of Torah Umesorah) needs volunteers to learn with interested women, once a week, for an hour

yes, YOU (most of you reading this) can do it, because you know lots more than other people

they match you up based on your background, interests, what you want to learn

http://www.partnersintorah.org......html

(I have been learning with my out-of-state partner for over 3 years)
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Motek




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jan 10 2005, 5:45 pm
Gemara Brachos 17A:

"Rav asked R' Chiya: What zechus (merit) do women have to merit Olam Haba (the World to Come)?

He said: They trouble themselves to take their children to the beis kneses (where the children studied Torah), and they send their husbands to the beis medrash to learn Torah, and they wait for their husbands (to return), and give them permission to go and study Torah in another city."

The Acharonim ask, why was Rav wondering what zechus women have to earn Olam Haba, when they fulfill so many mitzvos?!
The question was, since women are exempt from the mitzva of Torah study, what zechus do they have? And so the answer is that women enable their children and husbands to study Torah.
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Tefila




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jan 10 2005, 6:56 pm
Quote:
And so the answer is that women enable their children and husbands to study Torah.

Yep, and I'm sure the harder that is the greater the sechar Very Happy
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mp




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jan 10 2005, 10:25 pm
Just curious... why doesn't the gemara ask what zchus men have to merit olam haboh, since they don't carry a child, deliver it and raise it ?
Maybe their zchus is that they provide parnassah for the woman to be able to do that. Unless the wives are supporting them through kollel, that is. Anyone heard of that gemara...

My point being that this very question raised in the gemara clearly places more importance on the man's role in life( learning Torah etc). Otherwise, the question in the first line of this post should have also been asked.
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sarahd




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 11 2005, 6:44 am
Seemingly, we are zocheh to Olam Haba through learning Torah, which makes sense. Seemingly, too, having a child is not the ticket to Olam Haba. Therefore, since women are not obligated in the mitzvah of Torah learning, the question is how they will merit Olam Haba. The emphasis is on Torah learning, not the man's role in life.

BTW, MP, I'm curious - do you think the gemara cited is creating reality or discussing reality? And, do you think Chazal asked this question because they were male chauvinists or because they wanted to know how women merit Olam Haba?
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mp




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 11 2005, 4:01 pm
Quote:
Seemingly, we are zocheh to Olam Haba through learning Torah, which makes sense. Seemingly, too, having a child is not the ticket to Olam Haba


Why not ? Why isn't having and raising a child considered just as important as learning Torah ? Why is one "the ticket" and the other is not ?

Quote:
BTW, MP, I'm curious - do you think the gemara cited is creating reality or discussing reality? And, do you think Chazal asked this question because they were male chauvinists or because they wanted to know how women merit Olam Haba?


See, what I am curious about is that for the last week a lot of people on this site have been taking considerable effort to point out that Judaism considers women's work to be just as important as men's work- We are all respected equally in the eyes of Hashem even though we have different roles. So how do these people, you included, understand this gemara, which clearly favors learning Torah over other "more feminine" behaviors such as raising children ? Do you follow the logic- if they did not favor traditionally male activity ( learning Torah), they could have asked the same "zchus" question about a female activity, such as nurturing children. Why didn't they ask how men merit Olam Haboh ?

I do not know the answer. From a surface reading, it would indeed seem that these chachomim's attitude towards traditionally male activies vs. traditionally female activities reflects the times they lived in rather than the times we live in. However, I am open to another interpretation, if anyone has one.
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Motek




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 11 2005, 4:11 pm
Quote:
Why is one "the ticket" and the other is not ?


because G-d said so

Quote:
Do you follow the logic


no

Quote:
Why didn't they ask how men merit Olam Haboh ?


because they knew

Quote:
From a surface reading


therein lies the problem

Quote:
However, I am open to another interpretation, if anyone has one.


interpretation? how about the Truth that the Torah is the word of G-d given on Sinai, and this includes the discussions of the chachamim in the Gemara?

mp - do you believe in the divinity of the Oral Torah and that it was given on Sinai?
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Tefila




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 11 2005, 4:12 pm
Your right it's not fair just not fair, that we women have to stand up to be heard and how the Rabbi's are all men, and they don't have to go thru all the pain of bearing children and of the pain of growing up and growing old not fair.
We, women have been put down for so long. Not to mention that the women decides if the child is jewish not the man and not to mention too we don't need a bris milah b/c we were created 'perfect' and not to mention when kids grow up who do they most lean to and talk about is mummy. Ofcourse there's exceptions and not fair that we have to be behind a mechitza and dress head to toe, not fair they can't look at every detail of us and not want what they see, not fair.
Ok is that what you wanted to hear well life is not fair as we might know it but in the eyes of G-D it is more then fair and one day we might just realize that.
I know it just isn't fair!!!!!
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yehudis




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 11 2005, 4:26 pm
Anybody ever heard of "Talmud Torah keneged kulam"? Any more questions why the gemara asks the question in this way?

Premise #1 in learning gemara: the text is _meaningful_, but we have to get to what exactly it means.

Premise #2 in learning gemara: if you react emotionally rather than analyze the text carefully and understand what it means, what assumptions are behind it, and what it is coming to teach us, you gain nothing. And guess where it leads to... (Hint: look at the quote from Sotah.)

For more on how to understand the words of our sages, please see Be'er Hagolah by the Maharal, translated by Rabbi Yitzchok Adlerstein, published by Artscroll. I know Rabbi Adlerstein -- he is absolutely amazing. I try to go to his shiurim whenever I can. You can read the Maharal's original book also, but I really recommend Rabbi Adlerstein's translation, because he talks to the modern-day reader and makes it much more relevant to us.
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gryp




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 11 2005, 4:35 pm
mp, chazal is chazal, halacha is halacha, and Torah is Torah.
it is emes.
if we dont understand it is our problem.
end of story.
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Motek




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 11 2005, 4:36 pm
actually, Premise #1 is that Torah, Written and Oral, is divine from Sinai

if that's not the starting point, you ain't going nowhere
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gryp




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 11 2005, 4:37 pm
Quote:
you ain't going nowhere


Very Happy
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yehudis




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 11 2005, 4:56 pm
Motek wrote:
actually, Premise #1 is that Torah, Written and Oral, is divine from Sinai

if that's not the starting point, you ain't going nowhere


You're right. Make that #2 and #3.
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