Women's Learning | Imamother

Tue, Jan 11 2005, 5:16 pm

Okay. So I asked a relatively good question. Again- if Yiddishkeit considers taking care of children as important as learning Torah, why would the chachomim in the gemara ask about the zchus of women and not of men ? This is a valid question.

Yehudis :

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Anybody ever heard of "Talmud Torah keneged kulam"?

this is an interesting response and I will think about it. Basically you are saying that learning torah falls into a special category and it is more important than anything else, regardless of whether done by man or woman. As I am typing I think of more questions : First of all, the whole issue of whether torah learning is more important than doing mitzvos is not an easy one. In fact there are plenty of mitzvos that one is allowed to stop learning for. Right ? So does talmud torah keneged kulam really apply in our daily lives ?

Also, your quote just sort of leads to the next why. Why would learning torah be keneged kulam as opposed to raising Jewish children ? As someone pointed out, our whole Jewish identity is matrilineal and that in itself determines whether you learn Torah or don't.

If learning torah was really keneged kulam, there would be no choice. Women would have to learn torah, right ? If it is more important than anything else and women are just as a part of judaism as men are, logic follows that we should be learning torah rather than raising children. What does this mean, then, that we are still raising children ? Either it means that raising children is somehow keneged kulam also and no one found that quote yet or it means that this premise of women being just as part of Judaism as men is not true.

ForeverYoung
Guest

Tue, Jan 11 2005, 5:17 pm

motek:

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Rav asked R' Chiya: What zechus (merit) do women have to merit Olam Haba (the World to Come)?

He said: They trouble themselves to take their children to the beis kneses (where the children studied Torah), and they send their husbands to the beis medrash to learn Torah, and they wait for their husbands (to return), and give them permission to go and study Torah in another city."

sarad:

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Seemingly, too, having a child is not the ticket to Olam Haba.

I do tot see this to be a logical conclusion.

Just gving birth doesn't qualify one to get to Olam HaBa, I agree with that.

However, what does They trouble themselves to take their children to the beis kneses mean?
I understand it as upbringing children, who will learn, or whose children will learn (in case of a daughter).

Therefore, we earn olam haba not only via learning, for which we might not have time, but via ensuring the continuity of Jewish nation.

Also, we know that one who supports learning, is rewarded with the zehus/merit/ of that learning. So by encouraging our children & spouses to learn we aquare zesuh of their lwarning.

WELCOME TO OLAM HABA, LADIES!

ForeverYoung
Guest

Tue, Jan 11 2005, 5:29 pm

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why would the chachomim in the gemara ask about the zchus of women and not of men ? This is a valid question.

I assum thyat as loving husbands they asked themselves and each other: "ok, we get in by learning, but what about our dear wives?"
(somebody (Motek?) already mentioned this idea here)

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"Talmud Torah keneged kulam"

this line deserves a separate thread.

1. one learns to apply
2. one learns out of love to the Torah
3. learning w/ out application is worthless, even dangerous - this is why 2nd Bais HaMikdash was destroyed

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Why would learning torah be keneged kulam as opposed to raising Jewish children ?

howeever, as I wrote above, facilitator shares in the zehus. therefore, facilitating the learning is almost like learining itself and we're in good shape if we remember that.

if nobody will take care of the children, there would be nobody learning, therefore, Jewish mothering if the altimate k'neged kulam

Motek

Tue, Jan 11 2005, 5:29 pm

mp, are sophisticated arguments necessary?

how about naaseh v'nishma - when the Jews said to G-d, we'll do it, sight unseen?

nothing sophisticated about that

kabbolas ol is a fundamental concept in Torah

it means acceptance of the yoke, why? because G-d said so

sophisticated?

not at all

no personal attack here

simply clarifying the basics of our Torah

if you do not accept that all parts of Torah were given on Sinai and that we are bound to the statements of Chazal as Truth, please be upfront about that

nobody said, "I'm right"

what was said was that Torah is True

do you agree or not?

it's time you answered that question

gryp

Tue, Jan 11 2005, 6:01 pm

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learning w/ out application is worthless, even dangerous - this is why 2nd Bais HaMikdash was destroyed

ForeverYoung, where do you get this from?

learning lishmah is when you learn Torah not for applying it. it is THE reason to learn.

as far as sophisticated arguments go, that comes after accepting that the Torah is true, not before.

otherwise we might as well be discussing aristotle.

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"I'm right and you are probably just an apikorus."

im not sure why you wrote this. I wasnt discussing me and you, I have been trying for the past few days to get the point across, that our logic is very limited. so if you want a logical argument, to me that doesnt say much on the scale of things.

Tue, Jan 11 2005, 6:24 pm

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However, what does They trouble themselves to take their children to the beis kneses mean?
I understand it as upbringing children, who will learn, or whose children will learn (in case of a daughter).

Therefore, we earn olam haba not only via learning, for which we might not have time, but via ensuring the continuity of Jewish nation.

FY- Okay, this is a good interpretation of the gemara. "Troubling to take their children to beis kneses" now equals raising Jewish children. I can appreciate that, but is this your own interpretation or do you have a source ?
Also, why doesn't the gemara just say that, then ? Why doesn't the gemara say that a woman earns zchus by raising her children in the Jewish tradition ? Why does it say it this way ? What about a woman who has only girls whose girls have only girls etc.- does she have to wait to get her zchus until a boy is born and someone finally sends him to school ? Don't answer with her zchus being for her husband's learning b/c we are talking about our role of raising children, not husbands.

Motek- what difference does it make where I am holding ? Isn't there one truth for everyone ? What if I was as religious as you- would that make it okay for people to answer that I just have to believe and worry about the reasons later ( naaseh venishmah) ? What if I really wasn't frum- would you try to think of a better answer for me to mekarev me ?

To answer your question, I keep everything and have kept everything for many, many years. Recently, however, I am losing the reasons for what I do. Basically, I don't believe in much although I keep it all. Good thing that we are in Judaism where hamaaseh hu haikar and it doesn't really matter that I don't believe in the reasons anymore.

gryp

Tue, Jan 11 2005, 6:31 pm

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What if I was as religious as you- would that make it okay for people to answer that I just have to believe and worry about the reasons later ( naaseh venishmah) ? What if I really wasn't frum- would you try to think of a better answer for me to mekarev me ?

mp, the one truth for all types of people is that even when we dont understand it, we do it anyway. you are allowed to ask questions on the basis that Torah is true and I dont understand it, but not on the basis that Torah doesnt fit into my logic.

there is one basic reason for it all- and that is "because Hashem said so."
after that if you want to look for more reasons, youre entitled, but only on the basis of kabbolas ol.

Motek

Tue, Jan 11 2005, 6:53 pm

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[quote="mp"]- what difference does it make where I am holding ? Isn't there one truth for everyone ? What if I was as religious as you- would that make it okay for people to answer that I just have to believe and worry about the reasons later ( naaseh venishmah) ? What if I really wasn't frum- would you try to think of a better answer for me to mekarev me ?

naaseh v'nishma is something taught to kindergarten children and is engrained in religious children

to someone not frum, it's foreign

Quote:

To answer your question, I keep everything and have kept everything for many, many years. Recently, however, I am losing the reasons for what I do. Basically, I don't believe in much although I keep it all. Good thing that we are in Judaism where hamaaseh hu haikar and it doesn't really matter that I don't believe in the reasons anymore.

now the following is definitely not sophisticated, but I'll write it anyway

the Lubavitcher Rebbe on a number of occasions where emuna issues came up, asked whether mezuzos were kosher, whether the person only used chalav Yisrael products, as these spiritual factors affect one's emuna

I am sorry to hear that you are "losing the reasons for what you do," though don't know what that means exactly.

true, action is the main thing, but some of our mitzvos are in the Emunos V'Dei'os category, I.e. beliefs

seems to me that rather than get to the core of your lack of belief, you are getting sidetracked on other issues

one can question Torah endlessly, asking about women's role, tznius, shechita, kashrus, family purity, on and on

if the fundamentals are lacking, there is no point in discussing each topic separately

I recommend that you focus on the Principles of Faith, studying them in great depth. Otherwise, you are wasting your time and frankly, our time, as well.

roza

Tue, Jan 11 2005, 7:35 pm

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Basically, I don't believe in much although I keep it all

Dear MP,
why do you keep it all?
because of this?
your words:

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Good thing that we are in Judaism where hamaaseh hu haikar and it doesn't really matter that I don't believe in the reasons anymore.

Motek, she does NAASEH. so what's the problem?
it's the reasons she has problems with and who said G-D has reasons?
also many "explanations of so called reasons" that we get are not satisfying or poshut 'old' . I think all these are normal part of the traveling in Yidishkeit.
The question is- can MP make her research on this forum? I doubt it. askmoses or torah.org may be a better place.

Tefila

Tue, Jan 11 2005, 7:59 pm

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The question is- can MP make her research on this forum? I doubt it. askmoses or torah.org may be a better place.

If I felt it was a research, with all my heart I would not have gone on the way I did. But having dealt with lots of people with different backgrounds... I found it as trying to convince or show and even slightly ridicule us that we are all wrong!
If mp you do seriously want to learn more why don't you check some of the sites mentioned or find yourself a chvrusah and learn in the Torah not only about the things that seem unfair but also the things that do seem fair.
Hatzlacha Raba!!! Smile

Last edited by Tefila on Fri, Jan 14 2005, 10:37 am; edited 1 time in total

ForeverYoung
Guest

Tue, Jan 11 2005, 9:11 pm

Quote:

is this your own interpretation or do you have a source

Unfortunately, I have a very bad memory for references, however:

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FY- Okay, this is a good interpretation of the gemara. "Troubling to take their children to beis kneses" now equals raising Jewish children.

it doesn't equal, it IS IT
a child will go there only if he is brought up in the spirit & environment that values learning

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why doesn't the gemara just say that, then? Why doesn't the gemara say that a woman earns zchus by raising her children in the Jewish tradition? Why does it say it this way ?

b/c Gemara doesn't use extra words.
the Chachamim just made 1 statement, the RESULT of the woman's work. it is pretty clear that if the child is not brought up properly he will not go and/or will not learn
The just say the yikar - the heart of the situation, no extra words that are self-understood

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What about a woman who has only girls whose girls have only girls etc.- does she have to wait to get her zchus until a boy is born and someone finally sends him to school ? Don't answer with her zchus being for her husband's learning

I won't. I am answering that if she brings up a daughter who, if she had sons, would have brought up those sons properly, she gets the zehus.

You know, H' doesn't hold us responcible for the outcome - H' holds us responsible for what we did. If we did our best (& properly) in any given situation, we get full credit even if end goal is not achieved - b/c everything is inthe hands of H'

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what difference does it make where I am holding ?

the difference is that if you're sinserely asking, we have no problem answering to the best of our ablilities.
However, there are people (not you - you explained yourself above) who do not want to hear the answers, b/c they already made up their 'negative' mind & ask questions to prove to themselves & others that their answers are correct. & spending time on them is not productive

Tue, Jan 11 2005, 9:32 pm

The reasons I don't believe in many things anymore are very complex. The reasons I still keep it all are very simple. Shalom bayis- I have a terrific husband and wonderful kids and he is very supportive and patient through out all my issues as I am with him and his issues. I also keep things because I eventually hope that someone will answer my questions and I will be in luck b/c I ended up keeping things all along. Probably that person will not be on this website, sad to say. Nor on ask moses either. That website is meant for people with very little background and people who are satisfied with a sound bite and not those who want a whole discussion. I don't know about torah.org- I will check it out.

Chavrusahs? The women I know fall into one of two categories :
1. Either they don't have more background than I do and know what I know or less. Those people typically respond with pat BT explanations or the "we do it just because Hashem said so" line which I already know.

2. They do know more but are typically way busy with families etc for chavrusahs. Even these people fall back on the kabbalas ol bit eventually.

I guess to a certain extent everyone at some point will fall back on kabbolas ol b/c we don't know G-d and what He ( She Wink

) was thinking. It is hard to do things well if what you are doing makes no sense to you, however.

To some extent my religious issues are with the chachomim and how they all interpret things differently- I guess I don't really believe that Rabbonim can truly know and be sure that their psak is what Hashem wants. Especially since they all argue and disagree vehemently, even within Orthodoxy, even within same groups within Orthodoxy. There are so many unreconciliable quotes from the same body of law/hashkafah.

And then there is that whole gemara about R. Eliezer who disagreed with the chachomim and said let the wall fall down if I am right and it did, and no one cared. And then he said let a bas kol come out if I am right and it did and no one cared b/c in the end it doesn't even matter what Hashem wanted to begin with- it just matters how we interpret it here. And shivim ponim latorah and all that too.

Motek - thanks for the suggestions.

Last edited by mp on Tue, Jan 11 2005, 10:06 pm; edited 1 time in total

ForeverYoung
Guest

Tue, Jan 11 2005, 9:48 pm

mp, I would like to thank yo ufor sharing your trouble with us and commend you on being so honest w/ yourself & trying to find answers.

I also would like to thank you for explaining why you're asking your questions, b/c it makes it easyer to understand them.

I would suggest Aish - World Perfect & Science & Torah seminars.

If you're in NY - I will find the # for classes for people like yourself - sho are searching. I went there and it was wonderful. Pls

Torah,org has series for all kinds of levels.

Also, partners I Torah might be able to find a havrusa for you

finally, the story from the Gemarah about R. Eliezer -
I find it to reflect the greatness of H' & the responsibility of the Jews.
When we were given the Torah, H' told us to listen to our Rabbeim. Torah is not in the heavens.
And when majority was 'wrong', davka b/c H' gave them the authority to deside, they were correct in upholding their 'wrong' view. It says that H' laughted & said "My children outsmarted me!" and you know what? H' made a promice - to give Rabbeim the power & He kept it. And the desicion of the Rabbeim BECAME the proper way to pasken that question. Which shows that every single did we do carries tremendeous consequences.

As I wrote about bringing up kids (in women learning thread)- it's the process that makes the difference.

H' watches you from above, mp, and is proud that you're trying to find the truth. He Loves YOU! Really. Smile

PS you saw how people responded to your questions and to other questions on this forum.
if you like somebody's style, pm them & you might be able to find a havrusa here Wink

Tue, Jan 11 2005, 9:54 pm

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b/c Gemara doesn't use extra words

FY-
The gemara is not chumash. It uses lots of extra words. The entire gemara is made of the Chachomim arguing and discussing issues and quoting psukim to prove their point. They could have easily included the bit about raising Jewish children instead of just saying " bringing the sons to learn".

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I am answering that if she brings up a daughter who, if she had sons, would have brought up those sons properly, she gets the zehus.

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if nobody will take care of the children, there would be nobody learning, therefore, Jewish mothering if the altimate k'neged kulam

The way the gemara says it and you taitch it now makes it look like raising Jewish girls is only important because they will eventually grow up and finally have boys who will learn Torah. I am sure that there is considerable value, maybe even enough to get me to olam habah, just in raising Jewish girls period. Or is the ultimate purpose of raising Jewish girls so that Jewish boys will be born and learn Torah and the Jewish girl is only a biological necessity here ? That doesn't sound right at all. Again, why can't we say that women get olam habo just because they raise Jewish children in general ? Why is it connected davka to learning, which is typically done by men ?

But FY- thanks for your positive attitude and your encouragement and you efforts in not being judgemental. I appreciate it.

Last edited by mp on Tue, Jan 11 2005, 10:02 pm; edited 1 time in total

gryp

Tue, Jan 11 2005, 9:58 pm

mp, I have a problem. I will tell it to you because im sure you will understand. you see, some of the things that you have been saying are the wrong hashkafos. as you say here:

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To some extent my religious issues are with the chachomim and how they all interpret things differently- I guess I don't really believe that Rabbonim can truly know and be sure that their psak is what Hashem wants. Especially since they all argue and disagree vehemently, even within Orthodoxy, even within same groups within Orthodoxy. There are so many unreconciliable quotes from the same body of law/hashkafah

now im sure you do know that the Rabbonim's psak is what Hashem wants. im sure people have told you this many times. whether or not you understand how it can be, is different. if you have the right attitude in Yiddishkeit, you are free to ask questions.

BUT, here is my problem. there can be some posters on this site who are generally ignorant of how Yiddishkeit works, ie, they dont understand the concept of kabbals ol.... (I am also ignorant, so no one think im calling names, please) when they read a post like the above quote it will put DOUBTS in their mind about Yiddishkeit.

and THAT is my problem here. because doubts are very dangerous. Remember that a doubt comes from Amalek and will hinder someones avodas Hashem or taint their emunah.

which is why every time I answered one of your posts it was about kabbalas ol, because that is the answer to someone who starts having doubts.

now mp, I guess you have seen by now, that this is not a great place to ask these types of questions. there are many sichos and maamorim about emunah and bitachon which might be beneficial to learn. I have learned one last week, and it practically changed the way I look at things for the rest of my life. they are very interesting.

ForeverYoung
Guest

Tue, Jan 11 2005, 10:07 pm

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it now makes it look like raising Jewish girls is only important because they will eventually grow up and finally have boys who will learn Torah

as I said elswhere - the result is not our responcibility.
If I bring up a daughter who is capable but will NEVER have any bosy down the line, I still sicceeded

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Or is the ultimate purpose of raising Jewish girls so that Jewish boys will be born and learn Torah and the Jewish girl is only a biological necessity here ?

no.
men & women are partners. each has a role, assigned to H'.
man can't do it w/out women, women can't do it w/ out men. it's mutural.
we were talking about particular men discussing a particular situation.

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Again, why can't we say that women get olam habo just because they raise Jewish children in general ? Why is it connected davka to learning, which is typically done by men ?

1. world would not exist if learning would stop even for 1 sec
2. we cannot be Jewish if we do not know what it means to be Jewish. To find out what it means we need to.. learn Torah.
3. Torah is the blueprint of the world & instruction how to live.
Of course everything comes down to the Torah.

In essence, the Gemara says: women get olam haba by ensuring that there are learning Jews out there, by ensuring that our world doesn;t sease to exist!!!

A pretty noble cause, I would say.

And about chachamim: H' told us strait out to listen to them. Even though I do not always understand Him, I do not question His desisions (even though I do ask questions about them )

Tue, Jan 11 2005, 10:10 pm

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and THAT is my problem here. because doubts are very dangerous. Remember that a doubt comes from Amalek and will hinder someones avodas Hashem or taint their emunah.

I don't know about that. I think being a little skeptical and analyzing what you are told is healthy. Otherwise how are my religious beliefs different from a cult ?

But I also understand everyone's points about not raising these questions here. I guess my lack of faith may be contagious to others and I will probably annoy more people than get answers. I will try some other place. Thanks.

ForeverYoung
Guest

Tue, Jan 11 2005, 10:45 pm

this is a forum for mothers, and even though we did try to answer your questions to the best of our ablities, I do not think we have qualified Rabbeim who can address the heart of your issue.

However, I do think that at least some of the answers that were posted in responce to your questions are logical and valid. I think you should try re-reading them and may be pm-ing the authors for more specific details if you have more questions.

I wish you lots of success in your search and hope that other sections of this forum will still be helpful to you Smile