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What's so terrible about discussing a heter?
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amother


 

Post Tue, Jul 07 2009, 7:22 pm
I honestly don't get it.

If somebody tells me they got a heter for xyz, and it's not relevant to me or something I feel I need, then no big deal.

If somebody tells me they got a heter for xyz, and it spurs me to think, "oh, I wonder if I could get a heter for that because that's also an issue for me" then I go to my rav. If he gives me a heter, then terrific - clearly my rav feels like I do need this heter and I've done nothing inappropriate in asking for it. And if he says no, then I listen to what he says and that's that, in which case it is "no harm no foul".

Why would ignorance of the possibility of a heter for xyz be considered desirable? Don't we trust our rabbanim to reach the right decision when a request is made?
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Crayon210




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 07 2009, 10:47 pm
What's the purpose in discussing a heter?
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amother


 

Post Tue, Jul 07 2009, 10:58 pm
Why not if relevant to the discussion?
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queen




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 07 2009, 11:46 pm
bec. they are tailored for each individual person. Same way one doesn't share prescriptions, one doesn't share around 'heterim'

What is this, a let's publicize so others know they can get certain leniancies???
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Crayon210




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 07 2009, 11:47 pm
Obviously in context it's fine. But stam? Confused
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merelyme




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 08 2009, 12:06 am
It brings something into the realm of possibility for people who might not otherwise have considered it. That's not always a good thing.


(edited to correct a previous misunderstanding. Thanks for the clarification.)


Last edited by merelyme on Wed, Jul 08 2009, 12:18 am; edited 1 time in total
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amother


 

Post Wed, Jul 08 2009, 12:15 am
Quote:
bec. they are tailored for each individual person. Same way one doesn't share prescriptions, one doesn't share around 'heterim'


Not at all. To extend your analogy: I'm not giving you my bottle of Prozac. I'm letting you know Prozac worked for me. Whether you then discuss with your doctor whether YOU should use Prozac is up to you (and ultimately it is your doctor's decision whether or not to write the prescription). Why would it be better for you never to have known that there is such a thing as Prozac or an equivalent medication out there potentially available for use?

BTW, this is NOT a BC thread - it is about any kind of heter.
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amother


 

Post Wed, Jul 08 2009, 12:18 am
Quote:
It brings bc into the realm of possibility for people who might not otherwise have considered it. That's not always a good thing.


If a situation is such that a rav would give a heter when asked a shaila by that person, then the fact that the person became aware that it is in the realm of possibility is a good thing!
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amother


 

Post Wed, Jul 08 2009, 12:21 am
Quote:
Quote:
It brings bc into the realm of possibility for people who might not otherwise have considered it. That's not always a good thing.


If a situation is such that a rav would give a heter when asked a shaila by that person, then the fact that the person became aware that it is in the realm of possibility is a good thing!


Again, not being specific to BC, but generally as far as any heter.
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amother


 

Post Wed, Jul 08 2009, 12:26 am
Quote:
What is this, a let's publicize so others know they can get certain leniancies???


Why shouldn't one have the broadest possible knowledge of the halacha and what may be permissible under extenuating circumstances given an okay by one's rav?
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amother


 

Post Wed, Jul 08 2009, 12:29 am
Who said it is so terrible? Its no worse than sharing any Psak (even a chumra)
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Raizle




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 08 2009, 12:29 am
because while you may be sensible enough to figure out you need your own heter, there is an element of people that decide for themselves based on what other people got.

I know it seems weird but it's true
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Raizle




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 08 2009, 12:31 am
amother wrote:
Who said it is so terrible? Its no worse than sharing any Psak (even a chumra)
If you mean sharing a general psak then that's not the same as sharing a personal psak.

For example a psak to eat on 9 av doesn't apply to the general klal, but a psak about the kashrus of a certain item does.
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Tova




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 08 2009, 3:51 pm
OK, this may be a bit controversial, but I kind of agree with the OP. Let me explain.

[Firstly, I do not mean p'sakim about things related to the privacy of the couple/marriage. I would include BC in that. Let me just make that clear.]

But, to share a p'sak on a kashrus issue, Shabbos issue, etc that does not fall into the above category I think can expand our minds in halacha and thinking. [Obviously I don't mean to just start a thread and list all the p'sakim you got. I mean in context of a discussion.]

My husband and his chevra always do this. [ie - I asked R' ______ if you can take the pin out of a timer on Shabbos after the appliance already went off and he said _____.... real life current example.

I don't think it stops people from asking the shaylos they need to.

But I feel like people think that it's OK for husbands to do so but not wives. I don't know why, but I respect that "standard" of un-PC-ness and many times have to stop myself from posting a specific p'sak we got that's in context, especially if it seems l'kula.

I will give an example - but maybe that's already going against what I said I wouldn't do!

Using a timer on Shabbos for a pump has come up here several times. I had posted once or twice that our Rav said we can do so (as long as I put the pump valve on my body w/ a shinui) AND I can give the milk to the baby. This is w/ b"H healthy full term babies and including even after they were already receiving formula supplementation.

This issue came up w/ in the past week again and I refrained from writing my experience. Just because I felt it was a bit un-PC to keep posting about a personal p'sak. I really do not believe the woman in question would take my p'sak and not ask her own shayla. I don't even feel I need to put in that disclaimer. I hear my husband discussing halachic issues with his chevra all the time and I always think that it wouldn't go over here.

Any one agree w/ me?
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Tova




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 08 2009, 4:05 pm
OK, to add to my vent a bit, once I already got started...

I am yeshivish/litvish, my husband learns in kollel, and we ask halacha and hashkafah shaylos a-plenty.

But, I do not feel like every single Taharas HaMishpacha question that comes up needs to be answered w/ AYLOR.

We all learned the halachos when we were kallos; we learned that during shiva nekiim one must make 2 bedikos, once as close to after waking as possible (as long as it's halachically morning) and once as close to shkiya as possible. This is the l'chatchila and doing the mitzva in the most complete way possible.

The Rebbetzin of my shul gave a TH review class and said that each time a woman makes a bedika she creates a malach which then accompanies her to the mikva and helps her tevila to be b'kedusha u'vetaharah. So beautiful. So we really should be careful about this and not "lazy."

Yet, if a women misses some of the bedikos, as long as she does at least one of day 1 of shiva nekiim and one on day 7 of shiva nekiim it is not m'akev her from going to the mikva on time.

Did anyone learn differently?

But if someone asks this on the forum, she is told it is a question for a Rav. I'm not sure why as women we are not trusting ourselves to have learned the halacha. But, as I mentioned, I do respect these "unspoken rules" of the forum.
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shalhevet




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 08 2009, 4:10 pm
That's just not true. If a woman posts here that she forgot her bedika on the fourth day but did all the others, posters will tell her it's okay.

But mostly those are not the questions people posts. They post things like 'I did my HT ten minutes after shkiya - does it still count?' or 'I forgot to make a bedika on the first day' or 'I had a shaila on the third day and the dog ate it by mistake' or 'I saw red on the toilet paper and quickly flushed it away'.

Now do you know why we shouldn't share heterim?
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cassandra




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 08 2009, 4:11 pm
Tova, I agree with you. If I know there is a lenient opinion I will always post it with a disclaimer that they should ask a posek. Occasionally that will happen with a more machmir opinion too.

However, I think the issue at hand is different since someone started a whole thread basically with that point. And the tenor of the thread was a bit distasteful as it implied that most people should ask for x heter and would be crazy not to.

Why this is any different than those stories people are always posting about how they got a bright red bedika but showed it anyway and it was fine, I have no clue. Maybe because with birth control there really is no objective yes or no answer so it doesn't pay to discuss at all because the answer will always come directly from your own experience and makeup.
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Hashem_Yaazor




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 08 2009, 4:19 pm
Tova, well said.

There is clear cut halacha, there is personal psaks, and there is differences in minhagim.
Clear cut halacha should be posted without concern (like your example of number of bedikos) as long as the poster is 100% confident in what she learned. It can help clarify it for others, besides the OP.

Personal psakim should not be shared as halacha as many times they are based on specific circumstances of the situation. They can be shared to give a poster an idea that it's worth it to ask a shaila (like your pump example) without ever assuming it's always assur (thank you for the PSA, cassandra).

Minhagim can be stated as: My minhag/mehalech is that one dips 7 times for people in my circles (Lubavitch, I think?), but you should ask your rav to find out what you should do if you have learned differently and are unsure...
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ora_43




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 08 2009, 4:47 pm
In general I agree that there are benefits to sharing personal psakim (like those previous posters have pointed out).

I can imagine that it could cause resentment in some cases, though. Like if I say, "my rabbi told me I don't have to fast because I'm pregnant/nursing," and someone thinks "oh that's great, I hate fasting when pregnant, I didn't realize there was a heter not to" and asks her rabbi, who tells her she does have to fast. Then she spends the day feeling sick and headachy and might start resenting her rabbi for not being as cool as mine. (and it could turn out that there was some big difference I forgot to mention, like "oh and btw I live in EY" or "btw I have a history of preterm labor/ low milk supply/ migraines," and she's thinking that my rabbi would have given her the psak she wanted, when in fact that's not the case).

So maybe when some posters see a lenient psak being shared they're afraid of causing that kind of reaction, eg that people who wish for a similar psak will start seeing rabbis who rule differently as unsympathetic or overly strict, etc.
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Chani




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 08 2009, 5:39 pm
Quote:
So maybe when some posters see a lenient psak being shared they're afraid of causing that kind of reaction, eg that people who wish for a similar psak will start seeing rabbis who rule differently as unsympathetic or overly strict, etc.


I don't buy it. We're talking about adult women, not 7th graders. I also don't buy the "oh, but maybe somebody will read it and then follow it WITHOUT asking a shayla." Most people are very careful to say AYLOR. And, frankly, somebody who would follow somebody else's heter without asking their own shayla probably was at risk for doing their own thing regardless!
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