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Messianic Jews
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mommyofnineka




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 20 2009, 2:00 pm
A close friend of my mother's recently put me in touch with a young girl who is planing to visit Israel and was told I would do anything I could to help her. I spoke to her on the phone and she said she grew up traditional and is very interested in experiencing an authentic Orthdox Shabbos with us, taking some classes and possibly staying by us for awhile to help out with the kids, housework, etc. I just found out she is a Messianic Jew. Does anyone have any experience with this or any advice as to how to proceed from here?
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amother


 

Post Mon, Jul 20 2009, 2:06 pm
jewsforjudaism.org
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ChossidMom




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 20 2009, 2:06 pm
Oh dear. I have absolutely no idea. I'm not sure I would let someone like that in my house without speaking to a rav first to find out if and how to handle it. (And I'm a BIG kiruv person, but J*sus is a bit out of my league).
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cookielady




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 20 2009, 2:21 pm
I would not want her in my house, certainly not caring for my children. We had someone around our house for quite a while. He was a convert who used to be a missionary. After listening to what he was telling my children etc, It was clear he was still a missionary.
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amother


 

Post Mon, Jul 20 2009, 2:30 pm
I disagree with the not letting this girl come into your house!
You have a huge opportunity here to save this girl. I would recommend avoiding the subject until she brings it up, and just show her how we perceive Torah, why we beleive in the Oral tradition (Which bashes the possibility of J. being Moshiach), but not explicitly attack her (unless she asks obviously). If she wants to debate scriptures (As they call it) I recommend listening to Rabbi Tovia Singer's shiurim which address the major issues brought forth by these ppl, I.e. proves from the Torah that he had to be moshiach, that blood atones for sin (they use Vayikrah to do that) etc, check:
http://www.outreachjudaism.org/
it is very informative and can help you very much. Of course ask your Rav in any case.

Yi"h You should have nothing but hatzlacha in saving this girl's life.... Smile Smile Hug Hug
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stem




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 20 2009, 2:46 pm
There is a good chance she isn't really Jewish. Maybe try to find out a little more about her?
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shalhevet




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 20 2009, 2:48 pm
amother wrote:
I disagree with the not letting this girl come into your house!
You have a huge opportunity here to save this girl. I would recommend avoiding the subject until she brings it up, and just show her how we perceive Torah, why we beleive in the Oral tradition (Which bashes the possibility of J. being Moshiach), but not explicitly attack her (unless she asks obviously). If she wants to debate scriptures (As they call it) I recommend listening to Rabbi Tovia Singer's shiurim which address the major issues brought forth by these ppl, I.e. proves from the Torah that he had to be moshiach, that blood atones for sin (they use Vayikrah to do that) etc, check:
http://www.outreachjudaism.org/
it is very informative and can help you very much. Of course ask your Rav in any case.

Yi"h You should have nothing but hatzlacha in saving this girl's life.... Smile Smile Hug Hug


And I think you are very, very wrong. Mommyofsix (that almost used to be me, for those who remember Wink ) doesn't say she's had professional training in dealing with missionaries. Even if she has, her children haven't. Would you let someone with a fatal, easily transmittable disease into your house and with your kids? Even if it's to save their life? Unless mommyofsix has sextuplets, presumably at least one of her children is over 7 (and I think she has older children IIRC).

If this girl is sincere in learning about Torah, she needs to be sent to experts, who have great experience in dealing with missionaries. And even if I met her, I would never, ever start debating with her - what if she asks something you don't know the answer to? I would make enquiries as to somewhere where she could learn for a few days, who know how to deal with her (and nowhere near frum children).
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Mitzvahmom




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 20 2009, 2:54 pm
we had a woman come to meet us to talk about renting our guest house.

She looked jewish and acted jewish. It was not until we told her that she seems so normal why is she not married? That she finally admitted while she is a messianic jew she is not jewish!!
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mommyofnineka




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 20 2009, 2:54 pm
Well, in speaking to a close friend who has had a bit of experience in the matter, I was told that she will probably be very open to learn and hear and not try yto missionize at all. She will probably want to gain as much information as possible so that at a later stage she can infiltrate a frum community and missionize there. I already decided I am not going to let her into my home. I will have to speak to a Rav as to how much contact, if any, I can have with her outside the home.
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mommyofnineka




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 20 2009, 3:09 pm
I just tried jewsforjudaism.org and it says "this account has been suspended." I have been having a lot of trouble with my browser lately so it could just be that. could someone else please check the site and see if they get the same message? Thanks.
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ChossidMom




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 20 2009, 3:12 pm
I got the same message
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crbc




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 20 2009, 3:38 pm
torahlifeandliving.org Try this website. I don't think that letting this girl into you house is a good idea. But if she is Jewish and intersted in learning more about Judaism, you can try to find an organization that can help her. Good luck.
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ChossidMom




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 20 2009, 3:52 pm
crbc wrote:
torahlifeandliving.org Try this website. I don't think that letting this girl into you house is a good idea. But if she is Jewish and intersted in learning more about Judaism, you can try to find an organization that can help her. Good luck.


Looks like an amazing organization!
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freshie




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 20 2009, 4:00 pm
jewsforjudaism is really the answer. I once went to hear the guy in charge. they are very expierianced and they know all the tricks etc He explained how half of the people are just plain naive and were pulled into it thinking they were doing the right thing. And once jewsforjudaism meet them and explain they usually get them to leave. it is very likely this girl doesnt know any better. I would try and contact jewsforjudaism for advice I see their website is suspended but perhaps you can reach them by phone as this is what they specilise in and I for sure recomend you be in touch with them!
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sarahnurit




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 20 2009, 4:23 pm
We had a messianic "jew" that used to come to our house, and the more he became familiar, the more he started to speak about his beliefs etc etc, he started wearing tshirts with Yoshka pictures, saying Messianic slogans in front of the kids...dh one day decided that it was too much and told him that he could continue coming to our house only if interested in learning Judaism without missionarising...that was the last time we saw him.
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ora_43




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 20 2009, 4:47 pm
I know a few Jews who were formerly involved in "jews for Yoshke." They never missionized -- pretty much the minute they saw real Torah, they went for it.

I think that group has a much higher rate of people leaving for Torah observance than one might think.

OTOH, I've also heard of others involved in the organization who try to get close to religious Jews either in order to "learn the lingo" and fit into the community (or to appear more genuine when meeting non-frum Jews in the future), or because they see themselves as religious Jews + the frum world as their natural community -- but they have no desire to give up Yoshke. So there's room for caution as well.

Still, I think it could be very helpful to show this young woman real Jewish life. I'm not sure I'd be so quick to bar her from the house.

I don't quite agree with previous posters on the degree to which missionaries are dangerous. Even if you don't know all the arguments they use -- they aren't so convincing that they can magically turn Torah Jews to Xtians. There's a reason they tend to focus on the unaffiliated, the ignorant, and the not actually Jewish. For sure I wouldn't hang out with missionaries on a regular basis, or hire one to babysit, but I wouldn't be afraid of a single Shabbos meal either.

I agree with "amother" that if you do meet, the best policy is probably to not bring up her beliefs, and just to mention our beliefs when possible, and see if she's interested in learning at a genuine Jewish place. If she does mention her beliefs, or try to start arguing with her, then you have the perfect opportunity to refer her to Rabbi Tuvia Singer (of Jews for Judaism) or a similar expert in counter-missionary activity.
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Mirabelle




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 20 2009, 6:38 pm
I've worked in many many "pluralistic" Jewish settings that accept Jews of any and all backgrounds, including Jewish from the father's side. These were not kiruv organizations, just pluralistic.

Messianic Jews have never been accepted in these circles. From my experience people have to draw the line somewhere and believing in J*sus is usually going too far.
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Merrymom




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 21 2009, 12:32 am
I think they just changed the name. Tuvia Singer once spoke to a group of us and he worked with Jews for Judaism. Google his name and you'll find the new website.
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amother


 

Post Tue, Jul 21 2009, 12:40 am
amother wrote:
I disagree with the not letting this girl come into your house!
You have a huge opportunity here to save this girl.....


Her first and foremost responsibility is to her kids and family.
This is not your typical kiruv case. Bringing someone who doesn't know about yidishkeit into your home is not the same as bringing someone who is missionizing. It is my understanding that that is what messianic jews are all about.
We had one of them hanging around our house and communicating with us via email. He put up a whole song and dance about how he was interested in yidishkeit and coming closer but when push came to shove he still kept reffering back to ye_ _u.
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amother


 

Post Tue, Jul 21 2009, 1:00 am
Jews for judaisms site now called :
http://www.be-true.org/

BTW R' tuvia Singer is not associated with Jews for Judaism
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