INDEPENDENT TEENS/TWENTIES: HOW TO HANDLE DISRESPECT

amother

Sun, Apr 02 2006, 7:05 pm

This is a tough one. How do you handle disrespectful children who are late teens/early twenties are mostly not living at home and are self supporting? The same rules that apply to younger children are not useful here and there isn't the same leverage.

Sorry for the long story:
My daughter who moved out after graduating and lives with roomates and pays her own rent, etc, came home for a recent shabbos. Her relationship with me used to be good but had become more fragile over th past 5 years because she decided we're too frum for her. She now leads a more modern life, although I am fairly sure she's still shomer shabbos and kashrus even on her own.

She know I don't approve of her choices, especially her obvious lack of tznius in dressing. She, on the other hand resents everything about me (I'm not sure why) and mocks me as being "chaseeeeeedish" (which I'm not!) Lately, she has only come to me when she needs something, otherwise has nothing to do with me. I cannot figure this whole thing out and she doesn't want to have rational conversation about it--she just blames me for "forcing" her to be more religious than she thinks is necessary (I never forced and of my kids, only strongly encouraged them, and the others have found their own comfort level without rebelling, and I think that's OK, never insisting it had to be all my way.)

BTW, when she was somewhat younger I did try to take her for counseling because I was sensing certain social issues she was having with peers, but she refused to participate even though I tried our 3 or 4 different therapists so sounseling isn't an option for her -- she's a fairly "closed" personality.

Well, to get back to her last visit, she virtually ignored me. Never said "hello", never even looked my way, not even during the shabbos meals. shock

She helped minimally in the house/kitchen, leaving most of the work to her siblings and me. She did know how to come to them for rides though, and somehow gained their sympathy because when they had to convey messages between us because she wasn't speaking to me, they would not allow me to express any frustration I had toward her.

While I appreciate sibling loyalty and am proud that all my years of telling them how they have to stick together apparently has worked, I cannot underrstand that know one sees the extreme rudeness and lack of derech eretz involved here. Even if I had done something to cause this reaction (which I didn't), I don't believe I should be "dissed" like this.

We have reached an impass and I don't know what to do.
I don't want to ban her from the house because (1) she's still my daughter, and (2) this may be the only really frum environement she gets to be in and it's doubly important now to keep the connection -- yet, I can't tell you how unpleasant the experience was for me in particular (I was crying and taking pills the whole weekend, and it caused additional strife between me and dh and the other lids because I was on edge, and I didn't feel so supported).
Sad

Any advice on how to deal with this? Thaks for listening!

MMEC123

Sun, Apr 02 2006, 7:17 pm

That's a tough one. I can't speak as a mother, but as the child. I went through the same thing. Moved away and lived away for a few years & supported myself while single. I rebelled too (not to the extreme, I just became a bit less yeshivish than I had been). Trying to make it on your own as a single girl is really tough and it's easy to get influenced. Also, I know that all my friends & I who moved out had a very hard time going back home. You're used to being your own boss, your own monitor, etc. and are not interested in being bossed around. You're working and treated like an adult, and all of a sudden you get home and you're just the kid again. On top of that, I know you said your relationship with your daughter has been good, but do you know for sure that she's always felt that way? I have always (as far as I can remember) had "issues" with my mother and those painful memories don't go away. Lost trust or closeness is hard to recreate, especially when not living together, and when both parties aren't actively involved. I know I haven't given much advice, just know that it's common.

I would say, especially if she's already in her twenties, I don't think you can "force" anything on her anymore. She's an adult. You trusted her to live on her own and she's made a life for herself. I firmly believe that pushy, overly meddling parents can only cause harm. What she needs is your non-jugdemental, unwaivering love. When she comes home she needs to feel welcome for whoever or whatever she has become. And when she's away, make sure she knows you love her. Send her homemade cookies with a "love note", if you see something in the store that makes you think of her- buy it, call her. But don't try to convince her to become like you because she will most likely push further away.

Just my two cents.

red sea

Sun, Apr 02 2006, 7:37 pm

MMEC123 wrote:

I know that all my friends & I who moved out had a very hard time going back home. You're used to being your own boss, your own monitor, etc. and are not interested in being bossed around. You're working and treated like an adult, and all of a sudden you get home and you're just the kid again.

I would say, especially if she's already in her twenties, I don't think you can "force" anything on her anymore. She's an adult. You trusted her to live on her own and she's made a life for herself. I firmly believe that pushy, overly meddling parents can only cause harm. What she needs is your non-jugdemental, unwaivering love. When she comes home she needs to feel welcome for whoever or whatever she has become. And when she's away, make sure she knows you love her. Send her homemade cookies with a "love note", if you see something in the store that makes you think of her- buy it, call her. But don't try to convince her to become like you because she will most likely push further away.

It is very hard to be in your shoes. Right now all you can do is what MMEC123 said as I quoted above. Tell your daughter that she is an adult now and while she is not how you wished for her in frumkeit it is more important for you to enjoy a good relationship with her now than tell her how to live, she is able to do that on her own now and doesn't need your help. If she feels that you are no longer judging her your relationship can start to improve and she may have a chance of stopping to be rebellious if it is a factor at all in how she acts. Her behavior at home sounds like she does indeed feel that she has issues with you and as a mother you can help diffuse those feelings. A mothers job is tough and never ending, as much as you would feel better if you expressed your hurt etc, at this point in time from how you describe things it would in all likelihood not help you or her. Be strong. Have faith that she'll get her head on straighter soon.

morningstar

Sun, Apr 02 2006, 7:40 pm

I know it is the attitude that is so hurtful, but that can be hard to change.
On the other hand, if there are specific things you want, and you are able to state what they are, you have a better chance of it becoming the family standard.And it can feel very good to see some real progress, even if it is only in a very small area.
If, for example, you can say to your family as a whole that you expect to be greeted when people come in/ you only respond when people talk to you directly, you won't take second hand messages, then the siblings know where the lines are drawn: what they can do for their sister without offending you, and what she has to do for herself.
Try to be specific... and start with what matters most to you.
I agree that you want your daughter to come around, and that you want to avoid conflict-- so find a clear but non-attacking way to state the rule, and be willing to restate it over and over.
Wishing you much hatzlacha... sending you hugs across the airwaves.

Motek

Sun, Apr 02 2006, 8:38 pm

morningstar wrote:

If, for example, you can say to your family as a whole that you expect to be greeted when people come in/ you only respond when people talk to you directly, you won't take second hand messages, then the siblings know where the lines are drawn: what they can do for their sister without offending you, and what she has to do for herself.
Try to be specific... and start with what matters most to you.
I agree that you want your daughter to come around, and that you want to avoid conflict-- so find a clear but non-attacking way to state the rule, and be willing to restate it over and over.

I think this is good advice. You can simultaneously tell her you love her and love to see her while telling her what you expect of her when she visits.

Where is your husband in all this? Is he an ally? Did she ignore him and treat him disrespectfully too?

MMEC123

Sun, Apr 02 2006, 10:57 pm

goldrose wrote:

Quote:

I think this is good advice. You can simultaneously tell her you love her and love to see her while telling her what you expect of her when she visits.

personally, I disagree. If it was me you were talking to, I'd simply say to myself - fine, I'll just cut off ALL ties. By saying the above, you'd be risking that she might now want to conform to your expectations, and perhaps just leave you out of her life completely.

Exactly! We are on the same wavelength. I think saying expectations will only cause her to react with "I'm not there, and if I'm not good enough without being there, then goodbye". You can SHOW what you expect. She's not stupid and she knows how you want her to live her life by seeing how you live your life. Make sure you are being consistent and not sending mixed messages. As long as you are living right, she will see it and at the right time, she will become like that. But she may never be just like you and you have to accept that.

morningstar

Sun, Apr 02 2006, 11:26 pm

Quote:

Well, to get back to her last visit, she virtually ignored me. Never said "hello", never even looked my way, not even during the shabbos meals. Shocked She helped minimally in the house/kitchen, leaving most of the work to her siblings and me.

Goldrose, MMEC, you both wisely point out the possible negative effects of the mother coming down on her daughter with a long list of expectations. I agree that attempts at "daughter makeovers" are going to fail.

On the other hand, do you really think a mother should invite a 20-year-old, independent DD over, host her, serve her at the table, act warm and friendly and then have daughter in response pretend she doesn't exist?

Would you allow a husband to treat you this way? Would you allow a friend to treat you this way? would you allow a co-worker to treat you this way? A sibling? A VISITOR to your home?

Would you respect anyone who let themselves be treated this way and was too afraid to say, " I would like to be acknowledged when you enter my home?"

The scenario I imagine is Mom says Hi. Daughter ignores her. Mom says, calmly " You know, I would really appreciate it if you would greet me when you came in." Daughter either responds begrudgingly and then mom says thanks and leaves her alone and makes no other requests for the rest of the visit, or daughter ignores her, and mom makes no other requests for the rest of the visit. The next time the daughter enters, the scenario repeats, with no escalation.

You are right that dd might respond by refusing to come visit again. I think dd realizes how much her mother is afraid of her doing this-- and this is why she is able to get away with treating her mother so badly.

Only the mother can decide if it is worth the risk of standing up to this emotional blackmail in order to be treated decently in her own home.

amother

Mon, Apr 03 2006, 3:54 am

Wow! What thoughtful responses!

Quote:

I know you said your relationship with your daughter has been good, but do you know for sure that she's always felt that way?

things were pretty good between us, getting better for a while as she matured, although for sure there were some issues, particularly re tznius as she went through a bais yaakov hs which is ironic.

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I would say, especially if she's already in her twenties, I don't think you can "force" anything on her anymore

I never "forced" my kids to follow anything, Strongly encouraged, worked through their teachers, etc., but didn't "force"

Quote:

If she feels that you are no longer judging her... she may have a chance of stopping to be rebellious.......as a mother you can help diffuse those feelings.

for sure she thinks I judging, even if I'm laid back and don't say a word, because her choices are so far removed from what she knows I'd like. Any concrete ideas how I can diffuse the situation when she won't look at me or talk to me and even in better times was not one to express her feelings?

Quote:

you can say to your family as a whole that you expect to be greeted when people come in/ you only respond when people talk to you directly, you won't take second hand messages, then the siblings know where the lines are drawn: what they can do for their sister without offending you, and what she has to do for herself........ so find a clear but non-attacking way to state the rule, and be willing to restate it over and over.

great suggestion! I will try to implement it if I can, and maybe I can get dh to back me up (see next comment!)

Quote:

Where is your husband in all this? Is he an ally? Did she ignore him and treat him disrespectfully too?

good questions! dh says he wants to make peace but is kind of clumsy about it so somethimes causes even more hard feelings (intentions are good, just clueless What

) and no, dd is much too clever to alienate both at the same time, and dh makes no demands at all, has very little to do with her except when he has to pay up old tuition bills (then dd used to come crying to me for help) but generally dh is less frum than I am so she thinks her lifestyle isn't an issue for him (she doesn't know that even he has been appalled at some of the clothing she wears).

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exactly! this is part of what I'm afraid of and for good reason. I already overheard her saying that she's considering not coming home for pesach because she's angry at me.

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You are right that dd might respond by refusing to come visit again. I think dd realizes how much her mother is afraid of her doing this-- and this is why she is able to get away with treating her mother so badly.

Only the mother can decide if it is worth the risk of standing up to this emotional blackmail in order to be treated decently in her own home.

Very perceptive! I've felt all along that dd has manipulated and controlled, blackmail is a perfect description. Now that the problem is so clearly defined...what to do? (Remember, there is a serious risk of her going completely off the derech if I shut the door, that's always been on my mind as I allowed this to continue.) So far, I've mostly given in, but I must admit I feel a lot of resentment. As I said in my original post--this is really a tough one. Confused

THANK YOU ALL SO MUCH FOR YOUR INPUT, YOUR SUGGESTIONS, AND MOST OF ALL FOR YOUR HUGS! YOU HAVE NO IDEA HOW MUCH YOU HAVE HELPED ME (better than all those pills to calm my nerves!).
BLESS YOU ALL Cheers

MMEC123

Mon, Apr 03 2006, 10:14 am

morningstar wrote:

Quote:

You're right. I meant don't push "religious things" on her. Expecting to be treated properly is a different ballgame. For that you do need to state your expectations (but don't say "it's not kibud aim...", just how morningstar said it "in this house...").

MMEC123

Mon, Apr 03 2006, 10:25 am

amother wrote:

things were pretty good between us, getting better for a while as she matured, although for sure there were some issues, particularly re tznius as she went through a bais yaakov hs which is ironic.

I don't quite see the irony... I went to a BYHS too, as did plenty of people who have gone off. Unfortunately just because a place is called BY doesn't mean every teacher and aspect is guided with good hashkafos. In fact, many BY's are KNOWN for the teachers pushing aside questions that girls have. If they don't feel safe enough to ask and get answers to help them grow, the opposite can happen.

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Do you unconciously make faces? Roll your eyes? Talk about her and how you feel about her and she overhears or it gets back to her from someone else?

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I've felt all along that dd has manipulated and controlled, blackmail is a perfect description. Now that the problem is so clearly defined...what to do?

What's "all along"? How long? How'd she get to be like this? Where'd it start?

Amother, are you my mother Wink

? I know you're not but to a lesser degree, that's what happened with me and my mother. I never stopped talking to her but I found myself totally manipulative of every situation. B"H (X's 100) I realized what was going on and quickly put a stop to it. I saw that I had the upperhand and got my way, but I didn't believe it was right. It was just an unhealthy atmosphere (I truly thought that I was the one in charge). It took a lot of personal introspection and work to get past that... And though I can't honestly say my mother and I have a great relationship, it is very peaceful and respectful (though no longer, and maybe never again- trusting). PS. I'm fully frum to the extent my parents would want me to be (maybe even moreso).

hey its me

Mon, Apr 03 2006, 11:03 am

amother, im sure seeing ur daughter this way is a living nightmare!!

it sounds like I had the same issues with my mother as u have with ur daughter.

being iv been through it, (from ur daughters side) ill try give my 2 cents!

I treated my mother with disrespect, I chose to ignore her and the rules ogf her home, I wish I could turn the clocks back bc now that iv matured I realize how things couldve been better, and how much pain I caused my mum!!

BUT, I cant say im totally 2 blame, each time my mother gave me another negative comment, eg.my shirts to tight, I look like a shikser etc...I lost more respect for her and went a step down!

I seriously feel if she had only tried to understand me, see I was looking for answeres in life and respect me I wouldve come half way and respecvt her back!

being im am so different to my mother, shes totally closed minded, I thought theres never a chance shel love me or respect my ways!!
b'h the day I got married a lot changed!!!
she was here for a visit a few weeks ago and we had the best time together, we went clothes shopping and she admitted she didnt like wat I chose but thats the way I dress and she accepted it!!

when there is understanding and respect from one side it will eventually come from the other side, wen im around her I go out my way to respect her, I know she hates seeing my feet so the week shes in town ill wear socks..

being ur daughter feels like the victim here, and being shes young,immarture..and trying out life,as hard and wrong as it is u might have to be the one to start the pattern of respect!hopefully once she sees ur trying to understand her and respect her shel start metting u from the other direction!

it wont happen over night, I wish u best of luck!!!

amother

Mon, Apr 03 2006, 11:45 am

MMEC, it's Mom here shock

Well, maybe not exactly, but you are so insightful, mature and well centered that I sure hope my daughter grow up to be like you!

You make some very valuable points that I have to consider for myself, and I just hope Hashem opens dd's eyes so she can be introspective like you. The truth is dd is harming herself more in the long run than she is hurting me because it is difficult if not impossible to form a healthy marital relationship when you have a bad one with mom, and there's nothing I'd like more for her than to see her happily settled in her own life. (I can't believe she can be really happy now, with or w/o a dh--hating mom is a big burden to carry around. Sad

)

Quote:

What's "all along"? How long? How'd she get to be like this? Where'd it start?

I'm not sure exactly when it started, but for years she had the habit of waiting until the last minute with things she needed for school, rides to various places, problems that needed solving, etc, so that each thing became an emergency because it was the eleventh hour and I had no choice but to do "it" for her or she would be left in the lurch. It took me a very long time to realize that she was manipulating--because she knew that I couldn't say "no" at that late hour. It caused me so much stress to live like that, yet I didn't want to let her down.

So I guess over time she realized that she had me "jumping" at her command. I know now that it wasn't healthy to continue responding like that, but I did it out of blind love. Now that she's older, though, this behavior is more inappropriate and less acceptable--she should be old enough now to know that it's not respectful to make your mother jump at your command even if she thinks it will get her what she wants.

Without going into the exact scenario, it is when I recently pointed out to her (calmly) that she should be more considerate of me and my time and energy when she needs me to do something for her that she began acting like the victim (complaining to siblings and my dh) and responded by putting up this brick wall between us, and has not spoken to me since.

The issue of dd's resentment of frumkeit actually began in HS, and I'm not sure exactly why, but could be they were so strict in superficial ways that it turned her off. I remember her saying things like some of the girls who were so concerned about buttoning the top button were acting unethical or speaking loshon hora and dd couldn't tolerate the inconsistency--and the teachers/principle seemed to "reward" the top button closure, yet not notice the other stuff.

(BTW, I had taken dd for therapy years ago because she had some difficulty with peers and siblings, but it wasn't successful because she refused to participate. I have to keep reminding myself that it may be in her personality and that it's not all my fault, but either way it's painful.)

I know the problem hasn't been solved, and there is much work to do to undo years of unhealthy patterns, but I'm feeling less hopeless and a little less depressed than when I first posted.

MMEC and Morningstar, thank you for putting so much thought and effort into your responses. And yasher koach to everyone else, as well, for the great advice and support. It really helped a lot to have ppl to talk this out with and get such honest and insightful answers.

DefyGravity

Mon, Apr 03 2006, 3:42 pm

Hey Its Me, I had practically the same experience growing up! My mother always thought I was going off the derech because I didn't dress as tznius as she did. Outfits that weren't even problematic, she saw as such, only because it didn't fit her narrow view of what tznius should be.

Any time I wore something that she didn't approve of, she never failed to make a nasty comment about it. It really strained our relationship.
"Oh that outfit would be really nice if the neck was a little higher."
I knew she dissaproved and didn't need to hear comments about everything I did.

Thank G-d, she finally realizes that I'm Religious, even though I don't necessarily keep everything that she does.

I think that parents have every right to disagree with their children's decisions, but if they're not living under your roof and supporting themselves, parents need to hold their tongues. The only thing that happens when a mother constantly puts her daughter down, is a strained relationship and bad feelings on both sides.

MMEC123

Mon, Apr 03 2006, 4:15 pm

amother wrote:

MMEC, it's Mom here shock

Yikes, you really scared me for a second Wink

Quote:

Well, maybe not exactly, but you are so insightful, mature and well centered that I sure hope my daughter grow up to be like you!

Thank you

<--that's supposed to be me blushing- closest smiley they have.

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The truth is dd is harming herself more in the long run than she is hurting me because it is difficult if not impossible to form a healthy marital relationship when you have a bad one with mom, and there's nothing I'd like more for her than to see her happily settled in her own life.

I think this type of thinking is part of what made me change!

Quote:

I'm not sure exactly when it started, but for years she had the habit of waiting until the last minute with things she needed...<cut some out> So I guess over time she realized that she had me "jumping" at her command. I know now that it wasn't healthy to continue responding like that, but I did it out of blind love.

Truly I understand that type of parental instinct. I think it is most natural. Only because I now know how it made my relationship with my mother difficult do I realize that being firm on some things is important. I was the type of kid where I'd ask for something on whim or last minute and I'd either have my mother run to do it or she'd say no, I'd have a fit and then I'd get it. Either way I always got my way. I wish my parents would have said no. Or let me suffer my own consequences (ex: I wait til last minute to say I needed something for school and they couldn't change their plans to get it for me and then I'd get in trouble for school and never do that again).

Quote:

The issue of dd's resentment of frumkeit actually began in HS, and I'm not sure exactly why, but could be they were so strict in superficial ways that it turned her off. I remember her saying things like some of the girls who were so concerned about buttoning the top button were acting unethical or speaking loshon hora and dd couldn't tolerate the inconsistency--and the teachers/principle seemed to "reward" the top button closure, yet not notice the other stuff.

Why am I not surprised? It's very sad. When I was in 8th grade I noticed such inconsistencies. I poured my heart out crying to a teacher once over the fact that on the one hand if I wasn't tznius enough, I was punished. But what happened, I wondered, to those who judged me or spoke loshon hora about me (or anyone else for that matter). My sincere questions was how I actually got accepted to the BY HS I went to. I tried everything to get them to reject me but when I said this, they knew there was potential and they took me (my HS principal told me this after I graduated). But I still had the teachers who said things like "are you dumb? do you not know the Torah says XYZ about tznius?". It hurts. Even if it's "just" from your teachers.

On top of everything. Daven for her, keep davening for her, and daven some more!