should it be morally "illegal" for some to be pare

mimivan

Wed, Aug 19 2009, 3:12 am

OP, I feel bad for your husband but think logically about what you are saying
You said your FIL should never have been allowed to have children
So if that were the case, your dh would never have been born... shock

There are a lot of not great parents out there, and Hashem knows I have had my moments. However, I think it would take something quite extreme, like the cases Imaonwheels mentioned, before we can tell people to stop doing the mitzva pru avu...

Instead, "not good" parents should be encouraged to get therapy or improve their therapy skills rather than be forced to stop reproducing...how to implement this, I'm not sure...

amother

Wed, Aug 19 2009, 4:58 am

mimivan wrote:

im the OP. first of all, I wrote in the begining that I know what I am writing about some people that should not be parents makes no sense literally b/c then my husband would not be around, but it was a hypothertical.

second of all, many of you have been talking about things such as the mitzvah of pru urevu and other mitzvot related to parents. my inlaws are not frum, if anything my father in law makes fun of religious things and so I am not really sure where the signifigance comes into play about these mitzvot?

as for parents having their moments and things having to be extreme, I am not going to go into it but my husband's childhood was extremely abusive, not physically, but emotionally, very very very abusive which can be just as bad as some of what imaonwheels said.

grin

Wed, Aug 19 2009, 5:27 am

amother wrote:

mimivan wrote:

re: your 2nd point - any mitzvah counts, even if it's done by a jew who makes fun of it at the time - "hama'ase hu haikar" - the main thing is the act itself.

amother

Wed, Aug 19 2009, 6:14 am

I am one of those people that grew up in a horribly abusive home. My mother never knew how to love, told us that she regretted having us, and both our parents constantly belittled us, mistrusted us, and abused us on many fronts.

Due to some miracle of G-d we are all (10) sane and frum today, although all of us have issues to deal with.

Boruch Hashem I was blessed with a phenomenal supportive husband, who loves me and never rejects any part of me. I still have to work on myself a lot, for example not shout at my kids, when that was the only parenting method I grew up with etc.

I don't think I would say that my mother should never have given birth to me, but unfortunately I can honestly say that I hate her! I do not hate my father, for however crazy and mean he may have been, and still can be, especially to our kids with nasty comments, deep down we knew that he at least loved us!
Sad - no! My biggest goal in being a parent is having a happy home and knowing that my children feel loved, otherwise, everything else is second.

Mommy3.5

Wed, Aug 19 2009, 10:51 pm

amother wrote:

I posted here so that I and whomever wants to can be anonymous.

do you believe that it should be morally "illegal" for some people to be parents? we just got back from visiting my in laws and let me tell you that it was no picnic at all.
my FIL emotionally abused my husband and his siblings while they were growing up and my MIL was always making herself out to be a martyr and they both never showed any love at all. my husband has a lot of emotional problems (that BH he is working on now) that I would just imagine, if he would have had different parents (ok, that does not make complete sense because if he had different parents he would be someone else, but this is a hypothetical question) he would not have these problems.

being emotionally abusive is one of the most terrible things that a parent can do to a child (and my FIL knows that he did and still does that to his children) and not showing any love to your children is also a terrible thing.

what are your thoughts?

Had they not been allowed to be parents, who would you have married? And who would be your children?

No one gets the ideal parents, but, most of us would prefer to have been born to the parents we have, then not born at all....

mimivan

Thu, Aug 20 2009, 12:39 am

amother wrote:

mimivan wrote:

I don't think you can brush aside the illogic of the position (I.e saying your FIL shouldn't have had children) because you are talking about barring people from having babies...(not that it would be implemented...thank G-d for that...) Again...abuse is terrible...but one has to think do you really mean to say that children who have been through this should not have been born?

Although these stories are terrible...do you really want to see a society in which people have to be evaluated before having children or given the "right" to reproduce? A certain government in Germany did that...

I guess I don't have much use for hypothetical situations...so I am assuming when you are proposing such things you are absolutely serious.

Imaonwheels

Thu, Aug 20 2009, 1:13 am

Another point - the home you are born is is hashgacha pratit. One of my teachers for shalom bayit and chinuch says that children are moser nefesh for the chinuch of their parents. Abusive parents are not born that way, HaShem did not create them as abusers. For those who have witnessed or suffered abuse it is not easy to accept that, that are abusers were also victims. This is especially true if we succeed in overcoming.

I once witnessed someone I have known since childhood as suffering abuse start his father's pattern. I, his wife and kids just sat silently. 5 minutes into the tirade he caught himself and apologized and his wife hugged him. We don't meet often but I realized that he struggles with his Dad's ghost and his wife gives him the strength not to follow the pattern. The younger brother did not overcome. He is divorced and alone. His kids don't speak to him and when they try he just hurts them again.

Try to replace hate and anger with pity. You will also live longer.

Flowerpot

Thu, Aug 20 2009, 1:21 am

I don't think you should or can ban ppl from bringing children down to this world. but I think we need to realize how serious this topic is and not take it for granted. there are way to many "mistakes" Way to many teens giving birth, and abusive parentings. realationship should be talked about in a very serious manner.

Also if someone sees a family being abused I realy feel they should report it. to a rabbi or something ppl. are so afraid of ruining family names so they rather allow souls to be ruined. it hurts me so much when someone says that they were abused and ppl. were aware and didn't do anything to help.