DDs friend passed away

amother

Sun, Sep 13 2009, 6:27 pm

Tragically, dd's friend never woke up on Friday. To the best of our knowledge, she was a healthy girl. I am beyond grief for her family - what a terrible horrible loss devastating to lose a child. She was a wonderful girl, everyone loved her (parents too) and she will be sorely missed. I wish her family the koach to continue. Hamakom yinachem osam btoch shaar avlei tzion vyerushalayim.

Telling my daughter wasnt easy - but I am worried about how she can help her friends who were much closer to the nifteres. They are understandably having a very hard time. I want her to be able to be there for them, without upsetting them more. I also am concerned that she will think something is wrong with her because she is not as visibly affected. I hope the school deals with it correctly, and I mean every single teacher- its an extermely difficult situation, but a stupid comment can destroy.

amother

Sun, Sep 13 2009, 7:38 pm

It's not clear from your post what age children you're referring to. I lost a classmate relatively suddenly when I was in 7th grade. It was a devastating tragedy, but of course the school took appropriate measures and it was dealt with pretty well. At that age, we were mature enough to work through a lot of it ourselves, and it did help us bond more strongly too. I don't think your daughter will stand out in a bad way if she isn't openly expressing grief- if I recall correctly, many of us didn't outwardly appear to be as affected, but we contributed to discussions, projects, etc. related to the tragedy just as much as those who sobbed in class for a week.

ShakleeMom

Sun, Sep 13 2009, 8:23 pm

My cousin told me that when her dd passed away, the most horrible experience was all the classmates mothers coming to pay a shiva call, she couldn't stand it! She was like, helllloooooo do I know you from somewhere, where were you till now when my dd was honor roll, in the school play... suddenly when she's gone, your curiosity gets the better of you and you must be able to tell people "aw, I was there at the shiva, so tragic" stop playing important. Just passing on her message.

Like greenery said, Chai Lifeline has a service where they have grief counselors trained to go to the school. It works, trust me.

amother

Mon, Sep 14 2009, 12:53 am

[quote="ShakleeMom"]My cousin told me that when her dd passed away, the most horrible experience was all the classmates mothers coming to pay a shiva call, she couldn't stand it! She was like, helllloooooo do I know you from somewhere, where were you till now when my dd was honor roll, in the school play... suddenly when she's gone, your curiosity gets the better of you and you must be able to tell people "aw, I was there at the shiva, so tragic" stop playing important. Just passing on her message.

I am sorry your cousin had that devastating experience, and that people behaved that way. I agree, when ppl who dont know anyone involved come to pay a shiva call, sometimes it could be gawking. Not sure what I wrote that could be misconstrued as "playing important". But my daughters class is small and close knit, and the girl was over our house a few times for shabbos. And even if I didnt have a personal connection with the girl, if my daughter is to pay a shiva call, she would need me to take her. We will miss her dearly, and I dont see going to pay a shiva call as anything but the appropriate thing to do.

Raisin

Mon, Sep 14 2009, 5:42 am

ShakleeMom wrote:

Huh? do you call up your dds classmates parents when they make the honour roll? why should you? Another mother would be upset if people did not come to the shiva, so you can't win. Maybe these mothers were just bringing their daughters.

shalhevet

Mon, Sep 14 2009, 5:56 am

ShakleeMom wrote:

I'm so sorry she felt like that and everyone is entitled to feel whatever they feel.

I agree with Raisin though that it just sounds strange. I was once in such a position and I just felt so awful for the family, and I think everyone in the community is thinking about such a tragedy even if you didn't know the niftar. Even when I hear about tragedies in Israel when I didn't know the family at all, I share in their grief, and certainly if I know the family vaguely.

I think people come to show their empathy, to say they are thinking of the family etc. I didn't really understand what your cousin expected before - where should other mothers of classmates be when their daughters' friends are in the school play?

I would be interested what others think, because I have unfortunately been to shivas for young children in the community, and I only went to say 'just know everyone is thinking about you and cares' even without actually saying the words. Do other people think this causes distress to the family and they think people are there to 'gawk'?

Raisin

Mon, Sep 14 2009, 6:06 am

shalhevet wrote:

ShakleeMom wrote:

I just can't see that a busy mother of young children should leave her house, kids etc and go to a shiva house just to "gawk".

Maybe if the person sitting shiva has that somewhat negative attitude towards people, whatever you do won't be right anyway. So, maybe a small percentage of people are gawkers, doesn't mean the others should not come. IME people sitting shiva are much more hurt by people not coming or calling then by vague aquaintances coming by.

amother

Mon, Sep 14 2009, 8:22 am

shakleemom I agree with Shalhevet and Raisin.
I feel very sorry for the woman you speak about and my heart goes out to her but I can't help feeling that her reaction was unusual and perhaps a twisted perception of things.

I too would be interested in knowing if others feel this way although from what I've heard they don't.

My close friend had a tradgedy in the family and sat shiva and she didn't seem to think the people she didn't know where gawkers. She only had an issue with people feeling the need to apologize if they hadn't come. She didn't think it was necessary.

ShakleeMom

Mon, Sep 14 2009, 11:32 am

There were so many factors… a new baby, just a few weeks old at the shiva. A sudden and swift illness and death. A rare virus that people said “it was cancer but the family doesn’t want to say” duh! If it were cancer, the kid would probably still be alive today. In summary, the family wishes that people who came would simply come in, say the pasuk, sit in silence and leave. All these people who came all teary eyed “oy oh, she was such a sweetheart” it just rubbed it in. It was horrible, I was there! Everybody came out of the woodwork, suddenly they had these amazing stuff to repeat… everybody, stay home… or come say the pasuk and leave. DON’T say things, you cannot understand, never will, so don’t try to make yourself come across as empathetic. It’s pathetic.

ShakleeMom

Mon, Sep 14 2009, 11:51 am

amother wrote:

This is another one of those things that you can do the same thing to one person and one person appreciates it and from some posts here you see that it wasnt appreciated. Thats why I am always so nervous to go or talk to someone in a difficult situation because its a gamble if they will appreciate or even get mad.

since then I paid 2 shiva calls elsewhere... I had this huge fear of upsetting people. so I went in, waited for the avel to acknowledge me, say something, I answered something bland... after a minute or two said the posuk, and LEFT.

Fox

Mon, Sep 14 2009, 12:06 pm

This is an odd situation where I agree with everyone! Yes, you should attend the levayah and/or pay a shivah call even if you don't know the family well. It is a tremendous chizuk after the fact to see a lot of people, even if it is exhausting at the time.

And anyone who speculates in public or in private on the "real" cause of death, whether the parents behaved appropriately, whether the niftar is "better off," or goes on and on about how tragic it is . . . well, just take them out and shoot them. No, I guess we can't do that, but it would be great!

The aveilim don't need armchair analysis, insightful medical knowledge, or even tears. They just need our presence. ShakleeMom is absolutely on target: go, wait for the avel to speak first, say something positive about the niftar, even if it's a small thing, say the posuk, and leave.

gold21

Mon, Sep 14 2009, 12:20 pm

OP, its such a terrible story. the nifteres's family lives in the neighborhood from where both me and dh are from, and I was there on shabbos visiting my in laws and my MIL told me this story. I dont know the family personally, as I dont live in that neighborhood now. But its so tragic. I have no pearls of wisdom to share, but I wish you lots of hatzlocha working your daughter through her feelings.

amother

Mon, Sep 14 2009, 1:05 pm

ShakleeMom wrote:

amother wrote:

This is an issue regardless of the circumstances of shiva. When I was sitting shiva fairly recently, I had people I hardly knew, and who didn't know my mother, show up and say nothing, then I felt awkward at having to sit there looking at the person with nothing to say. I had people I knew very well show up and talk about work-related things and I wanted to tell them to shut up. I had people who asked me to tell them about my mother, so we could talk about good things about her, and that made it harder.

There's just no way a shiva call is going to be pleasant. People sitting shiva will be upset, whether you say something or not.

I know the purpose of shiva and having people be menachem avel, but quite frankly, it made it much harder for me to get through this time. I would have rather sat the whole time without anyone coming over.