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Why do(n't) you live in Eretz Yisrael?
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Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, May 31 2006, 6:40 pm
mummyof6 wrote:


The Ba'al Shem Tov (whom I'm sure Crayon holds by) and the Vilna Gaon sent their talmidim to settle EY at a time when no one had thought of zionism. Many other gedolim throughout the generations came to, or tried to come to, live in EY.


True, so many gedolim did it...
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Crayon210




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, May 31 2006, 6:49 pm
mummyof6, I hope you don't think I am against people living in Eretz Yisroel, because I certainly am not!
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shalhevet




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, May 31 2006, 7:25 pm
Crayon210 wrote:
mummyof6, I hope you don't think I am against people living in Eretz Yisroel, because I certainly am not!


Glad to hear, Crayon Very Happy
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Crayon210




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, May 31 2006, 7:26 pm
Good, just checking. Tongue Out
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amother


 

Post Thu, Jun 01 2006, 4:15 am
Quote:
In support of amother:

As far as I know only Satmar hold that to live in EY today is to transgress the 3 oaths.

All the mainstream gedolim don't hold like this, whether Litvish or chasidish, Sephardi or Ashkenazi.

The Ba'al Shem Tov (whom I'm sure Crayon holds by) and the Vilna Gaon sent their talmidim to settle EY at a time when no one had thought of zionism. Many other gedolim throughout the generations came to, or tried to come to, live in EY.


Mummyof6, Although we clearly have our disagreements, I can respect you because I see you are fair and can even back up someone who you may partially disagree with, in any case Irrelavant of whether state is seen as a positive or negative feature we both have the same desire to see more Jews come to E"Y.
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amother


 

Post Thu, Jun 01 2006, 4:22 am
Quote:
If I remember well r' Hayim Isrul the grandson of Menachem Mendel of Kotsk agreed.

Quote:
In 1886, he published his book "Shalom Yerushalayim", in which he requested that the Orthodox Jews of Poland settle in the Land of Israel.

"They should purchase land and settle there, work the land, and bring out bread from the land with their own toil in agriculture and other occupations"


Ruchel, There are so many gedolim who had this view, It Therefore pains me what happened before the Holocoust when many gedolim said not to make aliya, because so many in previous generations, had supported it, but the "Em Habanim Smeicha" is a great sefer on this topic from a rav who had been against aliyah and unfortunately perished at the very end of the holocoust.

anyway if you want I can quote many more. Glad to see you on this side of the fence, but realy would love to see you in Yerushalayim even if Paris is a nice and good city. no pressure just a wish! Kol Hakavod
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amother


 

Post Thu, Jun 01 2006, 4:37 am
Crayon, I'm glad to see this is finally dying down and maybe now we can all get back to encouraging aliyah, or at least discussing the actual toid without all the politics.

so just to summarize,

yes I'm glad to see you are not against living here, and I agree with the amother hat said even the Satmar and NK are not, they this is true even they live here. which really then makes the question of why you (In a genaral sense not directed at any particular person) don't live here, no matter what you hold a very good question.


since we know it is forbidden to leave E"Y except for (and this I was supposed to answer a few days ago so here it is)


Quote:
One can leave Eretz Yisrael for studying Torah, getting married, to save from the non-Jews and business. All with the condition it is temporarily. (Rambam Melachim 5, 9; for further information see Talmudic encyclopaedia 25, p.664-688)
In order to honour one’s parents one is allowed to leave Israel, the Rishonim dispute whether this only temporarily or also permanently (ibid p.681)
If ones parents prevent the child from living in Eretz Yisrael, he can disobey them (see ibid 26 p. 446 for sources and other opinions)


That said I just wanted to address your comment on the oaths.

Quote:
I am glad to see all this, but numerous gedolim hold that the oaths ARE applicable l'halacha and they were NOT annulled by the UN.

I'm not interested in debating who says what; it's not relevant to me. The gedolim I respect hold that Zionism is avoda zara, and that's the end of that. A debate on Imamother.com is not going to change the minds of the gedolim.

If this is relevant l'ma'aseh, one should ask her rav for direction.




Fair enough that it is not a debate for you, and it goes without saying that you hold from your gedolim and follow what they say, The point of this is to point out that there are different views, there are many gedolim who have weighed their thoughts on this, and it bothered me when you proclaimed things as assur or worse, as if there is only one proper psak.
but I agree with you now as you say everyone has to go by their gedolim.
(by the way this is an issue not nly for us but with our husbands too) I also agree that a debate here is not going to change the minds of Gedolim - That would be reaaaaly sad if it did!!! but what it can do is let us realize that their are gedolim with other views than we hold, and it can give us an appreciation or at least a proper understanding for the other amothers (and yidden in general) who disagree with our views. (the same way I respect a satmar who holds from his rebbi.) as for the majority I disagree. but it does not really matter lets just all respect any of us who hold from gedolim as this is our job!
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amother


 

Post Thu, Jun 01 2006, 4:43 am
Quote:
mummyof6 wrote:


The Ba'al Shem Tov (whom I'm sure Crayon holds by) and the Vilna Gaon sent their talmidim to settle EY at a time when no one had thought of zionism. Many other gedolim throughout the generations came to, or tried to come to, live in EY.



Quote:
Ruchel Wrote True, so many gedolim did it...



which I think leaves us bact to our original question, if they can do it, b4 not only the state, but modern infrastructure, airplanes, telephones etc etc. then why aren't many of us. Irrelavant of our pro or anti state views, as we see above nobody is against aliya on an individual basis at least. from Rav Teitelbaum to Rav Shneerson to Rav Kook, this is something we all agree with, so what's happening?
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jun 01 2006, 8:06 am
Crayon210 wrote:
mummyof6, I hope you don't think I am against people living in Eretz Yisroel, because I certainly am not!



???????????????????????????? I am VERY confussed. you have been saying only bad things about eretz yisrael. how do you justify all of that with saying that you have nothing against ppl living here in Israel?
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amother


 

Post Thu, Jun 01 2006, 9:31 am
Quote:
The gedolim I respect hold that Zionism is avoda zara,

Please give us the name of more than one Gadol who has publicly equated Zionism with Avoda Zara, preferably in writing.
I would like to see this "inside"
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mimsy7420




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jun 01 2006, 10:01 am
amother wrote:
Quote:
The gedolim I respect hold that Zionism is avoda zara,

Please give us the name of more than one Gadol who has publicly equated Zionism with Avoda Zara, preferably in writing.
I would like to see this "inside"


Me too.
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Crayon210




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jun 01 2006, 12:53 pm
ytwh1 wrote:
Crayon210 wrote:
mummyof6, I hope you don't think I am against people living in Eretz Yisroel, because I certainly am not!



???????????????????????????? I am VERY confussed. you have been saying only bad things about eretz yisrael. how do you justify all of that with saying that you have nothing against ppl living here in Israel?


NO! NO! NO!

Nothing CHV about Eretz Yisroel. I LOVE Eretz Yisroel. It is where I dreamed of making a home for many years, and I can't wait to get back there...

I hate the State. They are not the same thing.

Not only don't I have a problem with people living in Eretz Yisroel, I think it's a beautiful thing, it's a wonderful thing.

Please don't confuse Eretz Yisroel and l'havdil the State of Israel.
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Crayon210




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jun 01 2006, 12:57 pm
The Lubavitcher Rebbeim

The Satmar Rav

The Toldos Aharon Rebbe

The Brisker Rav (plural-Ravs? Rabbonim? Rebbeim?)

The list goes on, but these are the ones that have made a great impact on me in this regard.
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Crayon210




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jun 01 2006, 12:58 pm
Did you know that Rav Shimshon Refael Hirsch was also an anti-Zionist? (Forgot to add him to the list.)
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chen




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jun 01 2006, 1:11 pm
Crayon210 wrote:
The Lubavitcher Rebbeim

The Satmar Rav

The Toldos Aharon Rebbe

The Brisker Rav (plural-Ravs? Rabbonim? Rebbeim?)

The list goes on, but these are the ones that have made a great impact on me in this regard.


quotations, please? to indicate specifically that they equated zionism with avodoh zoroh, not just general opposition to zionism.
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mimsy7420




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jun 01 2006, 1:14 pm
chen wrote:
Crayon210 wrote:
The Lubavitcher Rebbeim

The Satmar Rav

The Toldos Aharon Rebbe

The Brisker Rav (plural-Ravs? Rabbonim? Rebbeim?)

The list goes on, but these are the ones that have made a great impact on me in this regard.


quotations, please? to indicate specifically that they equated zionism with avodoh zoroh, not just general opposition to zionism.


yea the question was sources - and public proclamations of equating zionism with avoda zara - not a list of rabbanim who were anti-zionist.
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Crayon210




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jun 01 2006, 1:39 pm
Okay, that'll take a little bit more work on my part. :-)

Will get back with that info soon BN.
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jun 04 2006, 4:20 am
Crayon210 wrote:
ytwh1 wrote:
Crayon210 wrote:
mummyof6, I hope you don't think I am against people living in Eretz Yisroel, because I certainly am not!



???????????????????????????? I am VERY confussed. you have been saying only bad things about eretz yisrael. how do you justify all of that with saying that you have nothing against ppl living here in Israel?


NO! NO! NO!

Nothing CHV about Eretz Yisroel. I LOVE Eretz Yisroel. It is where I dreamed of making a home for many years, and I can't wait to get back there...

I hate the State. They are not the same thing.

Not only don't I have a problem with people living in Eretz Yisroel, I think it's a beautiful thing, it's a wonderful thing.

Please don't confuse Eretz Yisroel and l'havdil the State of Israel.


so, do you mean that if you were to come live in Israel, you would not become a citizen? as in receive a teudat zehut (an identification card)? so as not to be a citizen of the country? just a curious quesiton.
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Crayon210




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jun 04 2006, 11:15 am
I would become a citizen, though I don't know what that has to do with anything practically.
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jun 04 2006, 3:08 pm
Crayon210 wrote:
I would become a citizen, though I don't know what that has to do with anything practically.


I am sooooo confused. so what exactly were you arguing about that the state should not exist?
you would become a citizen of the state, you would live here. I really do not get it.
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