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Do you wash after the bathroom OUTSIDE the bathroom?
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After the bathroom I wash my hands:
In the bathroom  
 58%  [ 66 ]
Outside the bathroom with a cup  
 28%  [ 32 ]
Outside the bathroom without a cup  
 9%  [ 11 ]
I don't wash  
 3%  [ 4 ]
Total Votes : 113



mama-star




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Oct 09 2009, 8:25 am
I learned that it is preferable to wash negel vasser in the kitchen (or at a separate "hand-washing station") after using the bathroom, but if you only make a #1 and there's no smell in the bathroom, that it is ok to wash negel vasser there if the toilet lid is down.
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Imaonwheels




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Oct 10 2009, 11:43 am
Nearly all houses and apartments built for the religious public in Israel have a negel vasser sink outside of the bathroom. I designed my bathrooms. One has a toilet and bathtub with sink outside. That one is totally family use. The other in the front of the house has a toilet and large sink for washing up. There is a negel vasser sink where people do natilas yadaim and brush their teeth. We do not ever put the water from inside the bathroom in our mouths. I also do not allow negel vasser of any kind in my kitchen sinks.

The morning water, after washing before putting feet on the floor can be dumped only in the toilet.

BTW, one must wash there hands after leaving a bathhouse as well. The excrement is not the reason. But because of the use of the bowl we make sure the lid is down and the door shut before making brochos at the table in the next room. And sorry, but the bowl is not always clean, especially if you are in the final stages of toilet training. Once you have flushed would you eat from it?
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freidasima




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Oct 10 2009, 12:01 pm
I don't know Imamother, at any stage of toilet training the bowl was always clean in my house. No I wouldn't eat from it because of germs, but I also wouldn't eat from a plate that wasn't washed with hot water and soap.

And I don't know where you get this business about apartments for the religious public all have sinks outside the bathroom. Maybe those built in the past 20 years but anything that mishab built before that had no sink outside the bathroom as there was no room! There was a tiny corridor and no room for a sink there at all! Only in the new ones or if you can design your own house which wasn't an option 30 and 40 years ago in Mishab apartments.
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Besiyata Dishmaya




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Oct 10 2009, 12:03 pm
gz wrote:
We wash OUTSIDE the bathroom, with a cup, like negal vasser. (we do 4 times each...)
I wash my hands after going into the bathroom, even just to bathe the baby.
so washing IN the bathroom would not help, cuz when I'm done, I'm still in the bathroom!
I would wash my hands with soap in the bathroom, and then outside, just with a cup...

4 times each hand? Any reason for this chumra?
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Besiyata Dishmaya




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Oct 10 2009, 12:49 pm
red sea wrote:
Mama Bear wrote:
red sea as far as I was taught your hands remain tamei if you dont wash them outside the bathroom. no eating or davening if your hands are tamei.

I guess there are different opinions on it because many people do wash even negel vasser by the bathroom sink.

Washing negel vasser in the morning in the bathroom is for the removal of the ruach ra and is not the same as washing after using the bathroom which is because of the tuma.

Quote:
But I suppose there are those who are careful to wash their hands before davening & e/o does before hamotzei, so What , I just get really picky about washing from the bathroom over my dishes and I wash my fruits & veg at the sink in the kitchen to eat, I dont like pple washing from the bathroom there.

Many people are makpid that there shouldn't be any dishes in the sink and definitely no food when washing the hands.
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Oct 10 2009, 1:07 pm
Imaonwheels wrote:
Nearly all houses and apartments built for the religious public in Israel have a negel vasser sink outside of the bathroom.
so interesting that you said this because the many religious communities that I have either lived in or been to for shabbat, I have almost NEVER seen this.

we wash our hands, WITH SOAP usually, in the bathroom. I dont know, for those that wash outside of the bathroom, do you first wash them, for sanitary purposes, in the bathroom?
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Imaonwheels




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Oct 10 2009, 1:09 pm
Mishab is one company and builds to only one sector of the religious public. I say that because it included in the ads for religious projects. I say that because in nearly 30 years of living here I have seen almost no apartments or houses that don't have this little sink. And those who didn't have it where in decidedly non religious areas like Tel Aviv or the western side of Rechovot around Machon Weitzmann and the HU fakulta.

When Mishab builds today it is usually high end apartments and the sink is standard. This is true of their projects in Y-m, Elad and Petach Tikva for sure. Also in Rechovot.

In fact, 1 sink, high floors, no sukkah porch and no sink is normally a sign that this project is interested in attracting the tzibbur klali, read secular.
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Oct 10 2009, 1:14 pm
Imaonwheels wrote:
Mishab is one company and builds to only one sector of the religious public. I say that because it included in the ads for religious projects. I say that because in nearly 30 years of living here I have seen almost no apartments or houses that don't have this little sink. And those who didn't have it where in decidedly non religious areas like Tel Aviv or the western side of Rechovot around Machon Weitzmann and the HU fakulta.

When Mishab builds today it is usually high end apartments and the sink is standard. This is true of their projects in Y-m, Elad and Petach Tikva for sure. Also in Rechovot.

In fact, 1 sink, high floors, no sukkah porch and no sink is normally a sign that this project is interested in attracting the tzibbur klali, read secular.
ok, I have no idea who built the apartments where I was talking about but just for an example, ramat beit shemesh, I have never seen it there and at a few apartments in har nof that I have been to I never saw it.
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freidasima




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Oct 10 2009, 2:42 pm
Imaonwheels what in the world are you talking about?
The religious Jews living in Rechovot, or who are on the faculty of the Weitzman Institute or the Hebrew University or those who live in the religious areas of Tel Aviv are just as frum and just as makpid as those living elsewhere. Don't malign an entire tzibbur or an entire city (Tel Aviv) because of your own personal biases. I take offence for all my frum friends who live in Tel Aviv!

Your personal biases are showing! This has nothing to do with frumkeit but only with places of work or dwelling places.

I have lived here longer than you and my parents lived in a mishab building that was built in the 1960s as did many of their friends and there was not a single apartment with a sink outside the bathroom. More than that. There was only one toilet in all these apartments! And a separate room with a bathtub and sink! They were TINY compared to the big apartments today, most were no more than 80 and sometimes 70 or less square meters divided into four rooms! Who had room for a sink outside the bathroom?!

It's a matter of developing luxury of the religious public, and has nothing to do with frumkeit, but with money to buy bigger apartments. Because in the charedi housing that I know of from the 1960s and 1970s, in those apartments there was also no sink outside the bathroom! You used the kitchen sink if you wanted another one, you are thinking about Israel of the 1980s and later when apartments got larger.

Besides, you didn't refer at all to the issue of the fact that the halochos of bathrooms were for outhouses (beit kissei) and places that did not have flush toilets where no waste remains inside the house. If you are talking about urine splashed outside a toilet bowl, well the same people will also have urine dripping on their pants or underpants and those are sometimes placed near their beds. Does that mean that they can't make a brocho in their bedroom either?
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Imaonwheels




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Oct 10 2009, 10:30 pm
I lived in Rechovot for 10 years. I spoke of no person's particular frumkeit but that area of town is primarily non religious. My ex worked in a tech company operating inside the Weitzmann for a number of years. Those apartments and houses were not built with the religious in mind. I once nearly bought a drink in a chazer store but the owner barked "We're not kosher" at me as I started to open the door. An American friend who lives over there and is MO said to me, "I live in the godless part of town".

And yes, the huge luxuries Mishab Apartments being built today are a reflection of the higher standard of living of their potential customers compared to the past. The sink provided today is a reflection of a request that they get from customers today that they may have not have received in the 60s. When I opened my mecolet and went to suppliers in the early 90s they all told us that the people in the shtachim don't want badatz, only rabbanut. Then they were right, even in Yitzhar. That is most definitely no longer true in many yishuvim. The tzibbur in many places is changing. In the early years, even when I came in the 80s there was a lot on both sides, DL and Charedi, being different for no other reason than to be different. Today there is more interest in getting to halachic truth as opposed to holding on to differences just to separate from the others. Though unfortunately it still exists on both sides it is a thing of our generation and not most of the young people, B"H.

As we get in to the community in Elad we see that the only new projects being built are for the DL who want to boost their numbers. Mishav is the contractor and the dirot are luxurious and cost well over a million shekel. They all advertise Shabbat elevators, sukkah porches or a huge gina and....2 kitchen sinks and a negel vasser sink. The times they are a changin'.
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freidasima




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Oct 11 2009, 12:25 am
Imaonwheels you are mixing apples with oranges.

Why are you even discussing stores that sell chazer here on a thread having to do with whether religious companies building for a religious tzibur always built with an extra sink outside the bathroom?

We all know that there are non religious tziburim, We all know that there are Israelis who don't keep kosher, don't sell kosher etc. But they aren't part of this discussion, I can't understand why you even brought it in, what was your point?

As for Mishab building during the past 20 years with the extra sink don't kid yourself. It has nothing to do with demand, it has only to do with money and the size of the apartments which are no longer miniscule. You can demand anything you want but just the same way that mishab housing build in the 1950s and early 1960s did not have sukka porches because it was too expensive and would add on the room necessary in the miniscule apartments of the time, just for the same reason they had no extra sinks.

Because proof is that the charedi housing of the 1960s was exactly the same as the mishab housing of the 1960s. No extra sinks. One toilet. One sink in the bathroom where the shower or bathtub was. Period.
Apartments were SMALL. Very Very small.

And of course no one would say that the charedi tzibur wasn't makpid would they? I'm talking chassidic and misnagdic as well. Just look at the housing in Geula and Bnai Brak built in the late 1960s and early 1970s. No extra sinks.

As for what you write about Rechovot, what in the world does secular housing have to do with what we are discussing here? Of couse you won't find a double sink in a secular house unless specifically asked for in order to have a fancy kitchen with a section for vegetables or the sinks that exist today with a large sink and a very small one attached to one side. But we aren't talking secular housing, we were talking MISHAB housing, the only building company which is geared to Datiim (not charedim) and has been around for some 60 years. So writing about housing for seculars in Rechovot when we are talking about extra sinks is like.....complaining about the fact that they didn't build a mikva on a Hashomer Hatzair Kibbutz!! Just not applicable.

Maybe please stick to the argument at hand and don't bring in tziburim which are not part of the discussion.
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shalhevet




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Oct 11 2009, 12:31 am
freidasima wrote:


Besides, you didn't refer at all to the issue of the fact that the halochos of bathrooms were for outhouses (beit kissei) and places that did not have flush toilets where no waste remains inside the house. If you are talking about urine splashed outside a toilet bowl, well the same people will also have urine dripping on their pants or underpants and those are sometimes placed near their beds. Does that mean that they can't make a brocho in their bedroom either?


I have to admit that as an (ex) Brit, I am confused here about what everyone means by a bathroom, so I might be barking up the wrong tree, but fs - you are right that there are different opinions about if our toilets (as in toilet bowls) still count as a beit hakisei. But a bathroom, as in a place where you bath/shower, is still just as much halachically a bathroom as they were in the days of chazal, and are probably a bigger halachic problem today.

We wash with a cup outside the bathroom (and, yes, we have one of those luxurious sinks).
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ChossidMom




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Oct 11 2009, 12:37 am
What I have found is this - Charedim wash outside the bathroom and more modern people wash inside the bathroom. Am I wrong? The Charedi homes are the ones where you find a sink outside the bathroom.
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HindaRochel




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Oct 11 2009, 12:55 am
In our Amana built house here in KY we have two bathrooms; a full bath, toilet, sink, shower/tub, no sink outside, upstairs in our case, because it is a four floor split level, and a half bath, downstairs, with the toilet inside and the sink outside.

So unless one goes downstairs every time one goes to the bathroom, which would get annoying at night, if one washes one would wash in the bathroom.

We learned that negel vasser after using the bathroom wasn't necessary. We wash with soap and water each time and that is it. Leave and then say the bracha asher yosher.
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Oct 11 2009, 2:06 am
ChossidMom wrote:
What I have found is this - Charedim wash outside the bathroom and more modern people wash inside the bathroom. Am I wrong? The Charedi homes are the ones where you find a sink outside the bathroom.
I have been to a few charedi neighborhoods and never saw that davka there there were sinks outside the bathrooms. I think that it just has to do with the builder and how they are designing the house/apartment.
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ChossidMom




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Oct 11 2009, 2:28 am
Could be. But my observation is that Charedim wash outside the bathroom (in the kitchen sink if there is no outside sink) and more modern people do not wash outside the bathroom. N'est ce pa?
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Inspired




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Oct 11 2009, 2:32 am
Mama Bear wrote:
red sea as far as I was taught your hands remain tamei if you dont wash them outside the bathroom. no eating or davening if your hands are tamei.


Some hold today's bathrooms do not do that, because the excrement is flushed away. Some hold you CAN wash the tuma away in the bathroom.
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gz




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Oct 11 2009, 9:14 am
removed

Last edited by gz on Wed, Feb 27 2019, 4:19 am; edited 1 time in total
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freidasima




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Oct 11 2009, 12:58 pm
Chossidmom I have seen lots of DL and especially chardal go to the kitchen sink after using the bathroom and use the natlah to wash before asher yotzar. This is AFTER washing with soap and water inside the bathroom. Just depends on your shita.
In ours I was taught that you can wash inside the bathroom and say asher yotzar outside.
As for the difference between toilets and bath=rooms, the room today in which you take a bath is still very different than the one in which people bathed before plumbing. It all has to do with the waste water. Is it still in the room? Or is it down the pipes and out? Is the dirt that washed off your body still on the walls of the bath like in the olden days or is it washed off with the running shower or telephone that runs water over the bathtub or shower walls and cleans them?

The invention of modern plumbing changed not only the toilets but also the baths and shower rooms! They are nothing like they used to be when these halochos were formulated!
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ChossidMom




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Oct 11 2009, 1:47 pm
My husband washes his hands at the kitchen sink every time he even steps into the bathroom to get a towel. He's very tuma/tahara minded.
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