Teen girl getting married off early

chen

Fri, Apr 28 2006, 1:04 pm

SaraG wrote:

Chen, I really cannot be held responsible what goes through another's mind on this site!!!!!

You are responsible for making your meaning clear. when you are speaking your mind, do you not wish for others to understand you correctly? Otherwise what's the point? Communication is a two-part process: sending a message, and receiving a message. If the message I receive is not the message you intended, what has occurred is not communication but miscommunication. (See thread on "broken telephone".)

southernbubby

Fri, Apr 28 2006, 2:39 pm

The term "bum" when describing a Jewish young adult who is behaving inappropriately has been in use for as long as I can remember. There may be a more politically correct way to describe teenagers who reject authority and the norms of the society that they grew up in.
Years ago when the "hippies" were in vogue, most frum people considered them bums. They wore ragged clothing and did not cut their hair. They probably did fit the description of derelict if they were using drugs. The term bum was then applied to any Jewish teen who tried to emulate them. Eventually it became the term for frum kids who were sloppy in their dress, manners, and frumkeit.
Is it judgemental to call something that barks, wags it's tail, and has 4 paws a dog? While we need to be sensitive to what parents of difficult teens are going through and maybe there are kinder terms that bum, I don't see judgementalness in SaraG's title. I think she sees parents that are being naive about their daughter's behavior and are making a serious decision without examining all of the ramifications. She wanted our opinions. She starts many of the posts that all of us enjoy, so please do not attack her if you want a different wording.

amother

Fri, Apr 28 2006, 3:48 pm

Quote:

In the frum world, reputation is EVERYTHING! We should try to judge everyone kindly but, because marriages are not random meetings but unions carefully chosen by families, a girl must do everything possible to have a sterling reputation. That is the reality and that is what we must teach our daughters.

I really disagree. I think I would not like my child to get married in a system where reputation is everything. That seems very shallow.

southernbubby

Fri, Apr 28 2006, 4:03 pm

Amother, are you disagreeing that reputation is everything to frum people or are you feeling that it shouldn't be that way? If it is the first question, I have news for you. When your child goes on the shidduch market, everyone in the family gets scrutinized, as well as the mother's head covering, the way she keeps house, where the father davens, etc. Am I right ladies?
If it is the fact that it shouldn't be that way, guess what? There are lots of rabbis who would like to see questions about peoples tablecloths and other picyuny subjects, stopped.
The other alternative is to let your children find their own shidduchim by meeting them through friends or at singles functions and bypass the shidduch process.
The reality is that we are living in a bubble and everyone knows what is cooking in everyone elses's pot. That causes a lot of unnecessary stress. I don't think that it is too much to ask of a girl to behave like a bas melech , though. I did not grow up frum and my mother was very emphatic about having a reputation as a "good girl".

DefyGravity

Fri, Apr 28 2006, 4:14 pm

Southernbubby, none of this happened to me when I went out. My family wasn't scrutinized. While dating each other, my husband only knew what I told him. Neither us, nor our families did any research.

My friend told me about a nice guy that she'd met, I dated him, learned a lot about him by being around him and we dated until we felt we knew each other well. After a few months we got engaged.

I didn't nose around and gather information. I interacted with my husband and saw for myself what type of person he is.

What might be considered a "reputation" for one person might be another person's cup of tea.

Whatever, my issues about extensive checking out (if at all) are a subject for another thread. But I'll end with stating that I think checking a person out is completely unproductive.

shmoozer

Fri, Apr 28 2006, 4:29 pm

I can't begin to tell you how wrong I feel you are. A guy can fake the entire dating time, and you could think you know him well and then once you get married... there are sooooo many stories like that. abusive husbands that they were in LOVE and dated for 6 months to a year before they got engaged and...
someone I know got married to a totally crazy guy who faxed the entire 3 months of dating, and she told my sister these words: "You can't know a guy until you have to pick up his dirty socks". how true.
But by finding out information, at least you know from other people what he's like in diff. situations, besides for when going out with a girl.

southernbubby

Fri, Apr 28 2006, 4:38 pm

Defygravity, you are lucky! Everything that I read and the collective experiences of myself and many friends indicates that a whole lot of scrutiny is usually involved in most shidduchim. We all want to protect our children! Like you have said, someone could make an entire thread about the checking out process, but I have seen people turn down a shidduch because they didn't like the girl's brother.
You can say that you don't agree with the process or that it didn't happen to you but don't deny that it exists for the majority.

DefyGravity

Fri, Apr 28 2006, 5:00 pm

Leafmort wrote:

Neither way is fool-proof. If someone can trick a girl for 6 months, he can fool everyone that knows him too.

I still stand by dating someone to know them. I know a few girls that definitely saw the beginnings of abusive behavior in their husband's during the dating process, but failed to put down their blinders and assess the situation properly. One girl was even told by others that her husband was sick, and she didn't want to believe them.

I think that if someone dates a person properly, they should be able to see signs of disturbing behavior. I can't say this 100% b/c I'm not in your friend's shoes, but I can almost guarantee that they saw disturbing behavior while they were dating and CHOSE to overlook it. I'm sure that even if people had told these women outright that they knew their potential spouse wasn't a good person for them, they would have brushed it off and said, "You don't know what you're talking about, you don't know "Moish" as well as I do."

Blossom

Fri, Apr 28 2006, 5:02 pm

NUMBER 1:

Everybody here deserves respect and courtesy. I feel that Sara G has been deprived of it in this thread.
Please post with respect and ahavas yisroel and yes I'm talking to myself too.

NUMBER 2:
DefyGravity I very much disagree. In the Chassidish and Yeshivish World Shidduchim very much involve gathering information about the boy/girl and family. It doesn't guarantee that you'll find out inside information and neither does dating with someone for quite a while.
I guess Tefillah is of the utmost importance here (as usual).

MommyLuv

Fri, Apr 28 2006, 6:54 pm

just a quick response: chen, please chill out. nobody except SaraG even knows this girl...this is a purely theoretical discussion aboout the pros and cons of a troubled teen possibly facing dating and marriage. let's keep the judgemental tone out of this..its an anonymous website, not the local gossip club, and we're all adults with varying viewpoints and different takes on the issue.

and you're right, sneakiing out to nighhtclubs does not equate sleeping around. (although it often does). since this is a hypothetical discussion, we are hypothesizing various scenarios that could be relevant. if you feel offended, feel free to find another thread to browse!

ShiraMiri

Fri, Apr 28 2006, 8:21 pm

SaraG - I will concede this point:

These parents are doing their daughter a tremendous disservice by trying to marry her off to solve her (and their) problems. A person must know who they are on their own first before they can join their neshamah to someone else's.

If it's true that a man and a woman are two halves of a whole - each must at least be a whole half (does that make sense?)! This girl is still young, troubled, and finding herself. Without the stability of character that only comes with time, experience and in her case it sounds like she could use therapy - any marriage she enters into will be short-lived.

Marriage should not be used as an easy way out to solve her problems.

Oh and by the way, after being immersed for years in the feminist movement, and having a minor in Women's Studies from a respectable university - I am most decidedly NOT a feminist. Feminism is just politically correct reverse discrimination in my book.

ShiraMiri

Sun, Apr 30 2006, 12:06 am

Ruchel wrote:

Marney wrote:

Feminism is just politically correct reverse discrimination in my book.

Only in its extreme form, or even when it's just about being equal?

I feel that feminism, like worker's unions, had their place and time, and that time is basically over. When women were not making as much money as men or being discriminated against in job hiring - it was a different story. Feminism was/arguably is a vehicle to protect women against such discrimination.

As far as the "social feminist outlook" I think it is a crock. Feminists want women to be free to make the choices feminists would have women make. If you choose to be a SAHM - look out! If you choose to have more than 2-3 kids - look out! If you choose to carry through an unwanted pregnancy rather than abort - look out!

Feminism is simply another social framework in which you must espouse certain values and lifestyle choices to be accepted.

I got sick of the lip service of "women are equal" and for the past 10 years have just been living my life as I feel it is best lived. Many of those ways do not conform to feminist culture (those parts that I live as a frum woman). Many of the ways I live fit very nicely into feminist ideology. The difference between me now and 10 years ago - is that I simply do not care what feminists think of me. I also simply do not care what frum anti-feminists think of me and my college diplomas and career. I am simply me.

downsyndrome

Sun, Apr 30 2006, 1:08 am

I just came across this thread and I want to defend SaraG. I think people have grossly over-reacted to her use of the word 'bummy'. Let's not play naive. Yes, unfortunately teens (and adults) who dress 'loosely' and behave loosely/rebelliously are referred to as bums. I think SaraG is very brave, considering that she herself is challenged with a child who is rebellious, and she is not trying to sugar-coat the 'matzev' of 'bummy' teens; she says it (and sees it) like it is.
I also have a nephew who is completely off the derech. This is not to say that the girl SaraG was writing about is anywhere near such a situation, but SaraG did call a spade a spade! Why were so many people jumping down her throat?