Chabad & "SheLo Asani Isha" and the Siddur

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ForeverYoung
Guest

Mon, Jan 17 2005, 11:47 am

break off:

mp

Quote:

Why does chabad not say sheosani kertzono ?

Quote:

this is an issue within chabad and should be addressed in a separate thread to Lubaviches only - you're welcome to begin that thread and I'm sure somebody will explain

Quote:

havent yet read the article but as far as "shelo asani isha," minhag chabad is NOT to say it, but the Rebbe said, if you are already saying it, you should NOT stop. it is in the siddur, though.

ForeverYoung
Guest

Mon, Jan 17 2005, 11:49 am

I am very curious:

what do you guys say instead?

gryp

Mon, Jan 17 2005, 11:54 am

nothing instead, we just dont say it. Very Happy

then again, those who were taught to, do say it.

but why does there have to be an "instead?"

ForeverYoung
Guest

Mon, Jan 17 2005, 12:32 pm

b/c Anshei Knesses HaGedola sayd we should say it.........
So just skipping it seems to create a void.....

also, are you talking about she lo asani isha or she asani kirzono?

b/c I saw in lubavich sidurim she lo asani isha, but not she asani kirtzono

Rochel Leah

Mon, Jan 17 2005, 1:49 pm

FY, I went to a chabad school and am a lubav and I say as I was taught to say it in school. when I went to sem I learnt that chabad doesnt say it, as it isnot printed in the chabad siddur. I didnt find out the reason why but was told if you already say it continue, I like saying it and will teach my daughters to say it as well.

so I think that there is some discrepencies in this among lubav becase I know that three are other lubavs who do say it..

any more learned lubavs could help us out here?

gryp

Mon, Jan 17 2005, 2:04 pm

sorry about that- I was thinking about shelo asani isha when I said it was in the siddur.

Quote:

b/c Anshei Knesses HaGedola sayd we should say it.........
So just skipping it seems to create a void.....

nusach ari and nusach ashkenaz have many differences.
I dont know for a fact whether or not this actual bracha is from the anshei knesses hagdolah, im sure someone else here knows...

zuncompany

Mon, Jan 17 2005, 2:54 pm

no clue, but have the cutest story about it!

I was teaching 3 year olds here when I first got married. I had a mix of kids... kollel, shluchim, modern. So, the principle tells me when saying morning barchas with the kids to say this with them. Okay, got to do what I am told. I had one little girl who was very quiet and never talked. One day when we got to this bracha she stands up and says I am Lubavitch and we don't say that! Than she looked at another little girl who was Lubavitch and asked why she said it- the little girls goes I don't! I just pretend to! Its not nice to make the other girls feel bad that they do say it! Out of the mouths of babes!

Smile

Sara

Pearl

Tue, Jan 18 2005, 10:17 am

as I am not chabad, could somebody please explain why the Rebbe said women don't have to say that? I am very curious.

Motek

Tue, Jan 18 2005, 11:41 am

it's not that the Rebbe said that

the siddur that is used, which is Nusach Ari, compiled by the Alter Rebbe (1st Lubavitcher Rebbe, author of Tanya and Shulchan Aruch Ha'Rav), is written that way

as somebody pointed out before, there are numerous nuscha'os (versions) of the siddur

ForeverYoung
Guest

Tue, Jan 18 2005, 11:47 am

thanks, Motek. Smile

So if I understood you correctly, it wasn't Arizal who compiled the sidur, it was the 1st lub. Rebe who compiled it based on his understanding of Arizal?

Motek

Tue, Jan 18 2005, 12:06 pm

no, see below:

Quote:

SIDDUR ARIZAL

The Arizal said that prayers enter Heaven through twelve gateways, corresponding to the twelve tribes, and that each Jew should use the nusach of his tribe to ensure that his prayers will pass through the proper gateway.

Later Kabbalists and tzaddikim, including the Baal Shem Tov and his successor, the Maggid of Mezritch, understood that the nusach developed by the Arizal was general and all-encompassing, and could and should be used by anyone who does not know from which tribe he originated.

Indeed, the Arizal's nusach is referred to in the chassidic literature as the "Thirteenth Gate" or the Shaar HaKollel [All-Inclusive Gate]. Since few today can know their tribe of origin with certainty, according to these tzaddikim, everyone today should use the Nusach Arizal.

Over the generations, many different versions of the Arizal's nusach have come into use. Many of these changes were the work of gedolim and tzaddikim greater than anyone alive today, but many others resulted from changes introduced by printers, sometimes based on their own understanding and sometimes motivated by simple issues of convenience; that it was easier to reuse the text of an existing siddur than to take the trouble and expense of making needed changes.

ForeverYoung
Guest

Tue, Jan 18 2005, 12:24 pm

thanks.

I have more questions:

Quote:

the siddur that is used, which is Nusach Ari, compiled by the Alter Rebbe 1st Lubavitcher Rebbe, author of Tanya and Shulchan Aruch Ha'Rav), is written that way

and

Quote:

nusach developed by the Arizal

what did Arizal & the Alter Rebbe do? - I'm confused who did what.

Quote:

Later Kabbalists and tzaddikim, including the Baal Shem Tov and his successor, the Maggid of Mezritch, understood that the nusach developed by the Arizal was general and all-encompassing, and could and should be used by anyone who does not know from which tribe he originated.

As far as I know, nobody davens nusah Ari besides Lubavich -

as I see that chadisim copy their rebbes down to the frames for glasses & shooe style, I think that Maggid & Besht didn't support this view in real life (may be they agreed w/ it in theory - I don't know).

Quote:

Since few today can know their tribe of origin with certainty, <...> everyone today should use the Nusach Arizal.

this implies that Anshei Knesses HaGedola should have compiled 13 different sidurim (if we count Levi, Menashe & Ephraim).
As far as we know, they compiled only 1.
Any sources/ ideas on this issue? Just wondering...

Quote:

Over the generations, many different versions of the Arizal's nusach have come into use.

Is there one siddur that is known to be 'good'?
if not, or if more than 1, how do people chose which one to use?

this is very interesting. 8)

People, pls keep the answers coming!!!

Motek

Tue, Jan 18 2005, 3:16 pm

The Arizal wrote it. Various versions of what the Arizal wrote circulated. The Alter Rebbe compiled/edited what he considered the best of the lot.

Quote:

Is there one siddur that is known to be 'good'?

well, obviously there are those who consider the Alter Rebbe's choice authoritative

will bli neder inquire more

ForeverYoung
Guest

Tue, Jan 18 2005, 5:44 pm

gotcha.
Ineteresting, thanks.

Did you know that the Vilna Gaon also made corrections to the regular sidur (not Arizal's), but he did not publicise it not to cause confusion?

gryp

Tue, Jan 18 2005, 6:07 pm

FY- what is the "regular siddur"? who compiled it?

ForeverYoung
Guest

Tue, Jan 18 2005, 6:13 pm

Anshei Knesset HaGedola Smile

Motek

Tue, Jan 18 2005, 6:21 pm

but we do not have The Definitive Siddur composed by the A.K.H.! We have numerous versions of it.

ForeverYoung
Guest

Tue, Jan 18 2005, 7:18 pm

pls list

gryp

Tue, Jan 18 2005, 9:52 pm

FY- im not sure how you would list them, there were so many many versions. The Alter Rebbe went through them with tireless effort and worked and worked until he compiled his own which is Siddur Tehillas Hashem. I dont know all the details of this history but thats the basics.

thats why im wondering what is the "regular siddur" that you mentioned...

AweSumThenSum

Tue, Jan 18 2005, 9:55 pm

I find this thread fascinating.

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