Chabad & "SheLo Asani Isha" and the Siddur

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ForeverYoung
Guest

Tue, Jan 18 2005, 10:03 pm

Motek, RG,
thanks for your patience

So lets see,

as far as I know, the following nusahim are in use now:
(by many people each)

- Nusah Ashkenaz - Litvaks
- Nusah Sefard - Chasidim
- Nusah Sfarad - Sefardim
- Arizal - Chabad
and Vilna Gaon - the followers of the Gaon

Did I miss anything?

O'k, so Beyond Anshei Knesset HaGedola, we have definite authirs/ sources for Gro & Arizal

what about the rest? does anybody know?

gryp

Tue, Jan 18 2005, 10:08 pm

I think the nuschaos that you mentioned were developed way way later that from the Anshei Knesses Hagdolah. (maybe im wrong, I dont know, but it doesnt seem historically accurate to me.) those nuschaos were probably developed from the numerous versions of the original anshei knesses hagdolah siddur.

I also was under the impression that many more people (Chassidishe Rebbeim) compiled Siddurim.

rydys

Tue, Jan 18 2005, 10:25 pm

There are actually many variations on the above nuschaos. For example, Bostoner Chassidim have their own nusach, based on the nusach of R' Levi Yitzchok MiBerditchov. Stoliner Chassidim have their own nusach as well and I'm sure there are others.

yehudis

Tue, Jan 18 2005, 11:20 pm

There is also Mizrachi and Teimani. Pretty much every large community has its own. The Sephardic community in Seattle recently published its own siddur.

ForeverYoung
Guest

Tue, Jan 18 2005, 11:21 pm

wow!
this is getting more & more interesting.....

sarahd

Wed, Jan 19 2005, 4:50 am

You realize that it's not only Litvaks who daven nusach Ashkenaz. It's also the Ashkenazim Very Happy

I.e. Jews originally from Germany, Holland, Western Europe. I grew up with the understanding that for non-Sephardic Jews the original siddur was nusach Ashkenaz and all the other versions- nusach Sefard, nusach Ari, etc. came much later, after the introduction of Chassidus. That's why if someone doesn't know which nusach his parents used, he should use Ashkenaz, as that certainly was used by his ancestors.

ForeverYoung
Guest

Wed, Jan 19 2005, 10:03 am

I included Ashkenzim into Litvaks! Smile

was that an error? LOL

And, Sarahd, am I correct to assume that nusah ashkenaz is universal for all those who use it? - I mean, bsically the same, slight variations don't count!

zuncompany

Wed, Jan 19 2005, 10:14 am

yeah, fy... I know my great grandparents were not Chassidim, but they were not Litvish. My great-grandpa would get mad if you called him one! He davened nusach ashkenaz.

sara

ForeverYoung
Guest

Wed, Jan 19 2005, 10:20 am

Really?

What did he call himself?

zuncompany

Wed, Jan 19 2005, 10:25 am

Ashkenaz. Really! You ask him what he was and he would said that. He loved everyone so he just was ashkenaz. Now that I have become frum I can see where some of his minchagim are rooted... some Chassidic, some litvish- as he always said- his minchagim were ashkenaz:)

sara

gryp

Wed, Jan 19 2005, 11:00 am

Early History of the Siddur
The earliest parts of Jewish prayer are the "Shema Yisrael" (Hear O Israel) (Deuteronomy 6:4 et seq) and the set of 19 blessings called the Shemoneh Esreh or the Amidah (Hebrew, "Standing Prayer".)

The name Shemoneh Esreh, literally "eighteen," is a historical anachronism, since it now contains nineteen blessings. It was only near the end of the Second Temple period that the 18 prayers of the weekday Amidah became standardized. Even at this time their precise wording and order was not yet fixed, and varied from local to local. Many scholars now believe that parts of the Amidah came from the Hebrew apocryphal work Ben Sirah.

According to the Talmud, soon after the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem a formal version of the Amidah was adopted at a rabbinical council in Jabneh, under the leadership of Rabban Gamaliel II and his colleagues. However, the precise wording was still left open. The order, general ideas, opening and closing lines were fixed. Most of the wording was left to the individual reader. It was not until several centuries later that the prayers began to be formally fixed. By the middle-ages the texts of the prayers were nearly fixed, and in the form that they are still used today.

Creating the siddur
Readings from the Torah (five books of Moses) and the Prophets form part of the prayer services. To this framework were fitted, from time to time, various prayers, and, for festivals especially, numerous hymns.

The earliest existing codification of the prayerbook was drawn up by Rav Amram Gaon of Sura, Babylon, about 850 CE. Half a century later Rav Saadia Gaon, also of Sura, composed a siddur, in which the rubrical matter is in Arabic. These were the basis of Simcha ben Samuel's "Machzor Vitry" (11th century France), which was based on the ideas of his teacher, Rashi. From this point forward all Jewish prayerbooks had the same basic order and contents.

Different Jewish rites
There are differences between, amongst others, the Sephardic (Spanish and Portuguese), Ashkenazic (German-Polish), Italki (Central and South Italian) and Romaniote (Greek) liturgies. The Mahzor of each rite is distinguished by hymns (piyyutim) composed by authors (payyetanim) of the district. The most important writers are Yoseh ben Yoseh, probably in the 6th century, chiefly known for his compositions for the day of Atonement, Elazar Qalir, the founder of the payyetanic style, perhaps in the 7th century, Saadiah Gaon, and the Spanish school consisting of Joseph ibn Abitur (died in 970), ibn Gabirol, Isaac Gayyath, Moses ibn Ezra, Abraham ibn Ezra and Judah ha-Levi, Moses ben Nahman (Nahmanides), and Isaac Luria.

(wikipedia.com)

sarahd

Wed, Jan 19 2005, 2:00 pm

FY - as you may have seen in RG's post, even nusach Ashkenaz has variations. There's the German version and the Polish/Bohemian version and probably others. Every kehillah has their own minhag. The basic tefilla is the same though - just a few words added or omitted here and there.

ForeverYoung
Guest

Wed, Jan 19 2005, 2:08 pm

thnk
8)

Motek

Wed, Jan 19 2005, 5:37 pm

Litvaks means those from Lithuania! Not too many Jews today are descendents of Jews from Lithuania.

"Litvaks" is a catch-all title to refer to non-chasidic, but in actual fact, if you questioned the students who attend so-called litvishe yeshivos, you would find that hardly any of them descend from people from Lithuania, and a large number of them (many? most?) are of chasidic stock.

by the way - guess who was known as "the Litvak"? Rabbi Shneur Zalman, first Chabad Rebbe! Smile

Quote:

I grew up with the understanding that for non-Sephardic Jews the original siddur was nusach Ashkenaz and all the other versions- nusach Sefard, nusach Ari, etc. came much later, after the introduction of Chassidus.

but the Arizal lived in the 1500's and the Baal Shem Tov didn't appear on the scene until the 1700's! So some people were davening nusach Ari long before chasidus. By the time the Alter Rebbe was compiling the siddur, there were 60 siddurim he worked with!

Quote:

That's why if someone doesn't know which nusach his parents used, he should use Ashkenaz, as that certainly was used by his ancestors.

if he knows what country his father or grandfather came from, then he knows what nusach people in that area davened

sarahd

Wed, Jan 19 2005, 5:50 pm

Quote:

if he knows what country his father or grandfather came from, then he knows what nusach people in that area davened

Not necessarily at all. His father could have come from Hungary and davened either nusach sfard or ashkenaz. He could have come from Poland and davened sfard or ashkenaz. He could have come from Belarus or Ukraine and davened sfard, ashkenaz or ari.

Rochel Leah

Wed, Jan 19 2005, 6:22 pm

Motek wrote:

[

I must be one of a few then...my grandfather was from lithuania.. and his children are chasidim....he came to south africa as did many lithaunians before the war. he planned on using his saved up $ to bring his family over but they didnt make it.

Motek

Thu, Jan 20 2005, 3:16 pm

some more info. for FY and others:

ForeverYoung wrote:

As far as I know, nobody davens nusah Ari besides Lubavich

the nusach sfard that chasidim use, conforms to the practices of the Arizal

(certain Rebbes like Radziner Rebbes, davened the nusach Ari of the Alter Rebbe though their chasidim davened sfard)

Quote:

I think that Maggid & Besht didn't support this view in real life (may be they agreed w/ it in theory - I don't know).

so they did support it in real life too

Quote:

Over the generations, many different versions of the Arizal's nusach have come into use.

Quote:

Is there one siddur that is known to be 'good'?

besides the Tehillim Hashem siddur used in Lubavitch, the Munkatcher Rebbe compiled what he considered the best version of Nusach Ari

sarahd wrote:

His father could have come from Hungary and davened either nusach sfard or ashkenaz. He could have come from Poland and davened sfard or ashkenaz. He could have come from Belarus or Ukraine and davened sfard, ashkenaz or ari.

it really depends on the information they have

if the father (grandfather ..) was from Belz, we could safely assume he davened nusach sfard

if he was from Dvinsk, it wouldn't be clear since that city was mixed, chasidic and not-chasidic

my husband told me something very interesting, that people realized that R' Chaim Sanzer used/switched among many nuschaos. When asked, he said that not only does every tribe have a nusach, but every point in TIME has one too!

ForeverYoung
Guest

Thu, Jan 20 2005, 3:58 pm

thnks

I heard that one should always add a personal 'touch' tho everyday tefilos

Motek

Tue, Feb 01 2005, 6:47 pm

it's quite fascinating that the kabbolas shabbos that we say had its origins in the circle of kabalists in Tzfas in the 1500's, and until then, even the chapters of Tehillim that we say now as part of Kabbolas Shabbos weren't said!

the Ramak insituted the 6 perakim of Tehillim beginning with Lechu neranina

and R' Shlomo Alkabetz composed Lecha Dodi, and it began to spread and eventually it became part of the sidur, accepted almost everywhere, remarkable!

and while we're on the topic of the siddur and who wrote what, the Aleinu prayer was composed by Yehoshua!

Motek

Thu, Feb 10 2005, 1:37 pm

back to the thread topic:

heard this in a shiur:

there's an advantage in doing something yourself and an advantage when it comes from Above

when it comes from you - you did it yourself and it's more precious

when it comes from Above, it's on a higher level

the Chasidic idea that Shabbos Rosh Ha'Shana when we don't blow shofar is not less in importance or significance than the day when we do blow shofar, because Shabbos makes the shofar-blowing unnecessary by providing whatever shofar accomplishes, can be applied to men and women and mitzvos as follows:

The 3 brachos of [gentile], eved, and isha are in reference to mitzva observance. That women are exempt from time-bound mitzvos is not, as the world sees it - because Judaism is sexist, but because (like Shabbos-Rosh Ha'Shana) they don't need them. As Chasidus explains it, a mitzva connects us to Hashem. Women have far less of a need for mitzvos to connect them to Hashem than men. So why then do the men say the bracha sh'lo asani isha?

Because the fact that women don't need these mitzvos comes from Above. Men are thanking Hashem for the ability to connect to Him on their own. Each one has his/her advantage/disadvantage.

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