brother becoming a lot less frum

amother

Sun, Apr 30 2006, 10:13 pm

My brother has been in yeshiva most of his life. He's always been a good student, not the best learner, but very frum and involved. It seems as though all of a sudden he just snapped. One day he said I'm not going to get smicha and ever since then its been downhill. He wont talk to Rabbi's, my parents are miserable. He barely wears his yarlmuka, he beard is almost gone, hangs out, you get the picture.
I have some concerns;

1- How can I talk to him and try to get through to him, what can I say? And if not me, then who should?
2- How do I as a mother prevent this from happening to one of my kids CH"V.

I feel so bad for my parents. It's heartbreaking. Why does it seem that teens are getting so out of control these days and what can we do to change that>!?

southernbubby

Sun, Apr 30 2006, 10:38 pm

When students who are not the best learners get put in a yeshiva where there is a lot of pressure, they often snap. I see people who have made peace with less intense yeshivas and feel that their kids are more likely to stick with it.

amother

Mon, May 01 2006, 2:03 am

It's only in the past few years that our community has begun to recognize the need for less intensive and conforming yeshivas, and that's reat for the parents who are taking advantage of the new opportunities. But we have afamily member who was in yesh about 8-10 years ago and while he was smart he had no zitzfleish and even though he had the best of intentions he wasn't allowed to stay in the selective yesh he chose. It was a real slap in the face and impacted him seriously. He went in wanting to be extremely frum and yeshivish, like his Rebbis, and this fervor was lost. B"H his parents stayed on top of the situation andeven though he had to change schoolsyet another time, at least he graduated and did not fall in with the wrong crowd. But he certainly came out of yesh far less frum than when he went in, and that's a sad commentary on the yesh system.

Original amother, southernbubby is right, if at all possible see if you can get bro to go to a less demanding yesh but one that at least will give him the environment and social circle that is more wholesome than ch'v on the streets.

amother

Mon, May 01 2006, 11:29 am

Most important, be accepting and nice to him. Let him feel welcome in your house. Although you do have to explain to your kids that he is going through sa rough time.
I have seen it happening with my sister and brother. There was a time that my brother did not put tefilin, or daven at all. But he was a part of the family loved by all of us, and he B"H bounced back. Another brother changed his levish drastically(looks out of place in family pictures Wink

)But he is still my brother, and we are happy that he did not fall lower than he did. (although my father does criticize him, the rest of the family fully accepts him.)

gryp

Mon, May 01 2006, 12:19 pm

dear amother,
ive watched a few people do this, unfortunately.
my observations:
in order for your brother to remain a responsible, respectable individual, I feel it is very very important for him to be on a schedule he is willing to adhere to every single day.
the scary part about this, is that once someone starts spiraling downwards, we dont know how far ch"v they will go down, before they realize and start their journey back upwards.
sticking to a schedule curbs this.
the schedule should include a time to wake up in the morning and a time to go to sleep. Exclamation

also very very important: we know that when someone isnt learning on a regular basis, he remains uninspired and therefore more vulnerable to outside influences.
the schedule must include a set time your brother agrees to learn ideally daily and ideally with a chavrusah.
perhaps he will agree to go to minyan at least once a day- put that in the schedule.
whatever time he starts and comes home from work goes in the schedule too.

hatzlacha raba, may we hear good news, and may your family have much nachas from him.

amother

Mon, May 01 2006, 9:15 pm

sigh & doube sigh
I know how you feel.
I have 2 brothers and both went through stages.
I don't know how old your brother is, but my brothers both went through difficult times in the mid/late-teens. I thought that was it. no yarmulka. hanging out with girls. even chillul shabbos and drugs.
But B"H, even if they're more modern than me, they are shomer shabbos today.
don't criticize. just be there for him. invite him over to play with your kids or for a meal.
daven.
good luck!

Motek

Tue, May 02 2006, 5:11 pm

about the original post: I think it's a mistake to ASSUME it's because he found yeshiva too demanding. And it's a mistake to make demands. You have NO IDEA what's going on with him. It could be anything and I don't know what to suggest for how you or your parents should find out. A close friend of his? A former rebbi? a former counselor or someone he likes? It's important to find out WHAT'S GOING ON.

How to prevent it? For one thing, you would want your child to be able to confide in you about their concerns.

As for posters who wrote about more than one sibling going off - what's that about? Confused

amother

Tue, May 02 2006, 6:39 pm

Motek wrote:

As for posters who wrote about more than one sibling going off - what's that about? Confused

it can happen in ANY family -- though I wouldn't wish it on anyone -- but please do not judge.
my family is a bit more modern. my mother calls it a dysfunctional family. whatever. I would rather not get into it. Sad

Motek

Tue, May 02 2006, 6:46 pm

amother wrote:

it can happen in ANY family

You mean it's a random kind of thing or an Act of G-d?

Quote:

please do not judge

huh?

You don't think that a family that has a number of children leaving Yiddishkeit should do some thinking about what's going on?

morningstar

Tue, May 02 2006, 11:22 pm

Motek wrote:
How to prevent it? For one thing, you would want your child to be able to confide in you about their concerns.

Well, yes. Most of us would want our children to confide in us if there was a problem. But some children are more willing to confide than others. And some don't think that way: there may be something bothering them, but they have no idea what it is, and resist exploring the topic.
Same for adults: I know lots of adults who are intensely private and/or uncomfortable talking about feelings and don't confide in anyone. (Often these people are male, and the thought of a heart-to-heart talk fills them with dread.)
To use the "multiple-intelligences" lingo they are low in intrapersonal intelligence.

Last edited by morningstar on Wed, May 03 2006, 9:45 am; edited 2 times in total

seniormom

Wed, May 03 2006, 12:05 am

Quote:

You don't think that a family that has a number of children leaving Yiddishkeit should do some thinking about what's going on?

Of course, Motek, they should think about it, but often by time they realize the severity of the problem, it's a little late. Also, some families are aware of impending problems, but are so busy "putting out fires" each time there's a crisis that they have little time or energy to focus on the larger issues that are the causes.

I've seen this happen with more than a few families--some were B"H successful in dealing with the fundamental causes, others, unfortunately just muddle through trying to save one neshama at a time. No one should know of such tzoros, but maybe we have to cut these ppl some slack...they surely aren't intentionally causing their kids to go off the derech.

And, I think it would be appropriate for the yeshivos/rebbeim/roshei yeshiva to play some constructive role here. Certainly there are early signs that a child is having problems, and it often starts in school. Maybe the yesh. should initiate a plan with the parents to prevent escalation of the problem, and give the parents guidance (we're assuming here that rebeim/roshei yesh.are real educators and professionals). Maybe the parents just don't know what to do.

seniormom

Wed, May 03 2006, 12:06 am

Quote:

You don't think that a family that has a number of children leaving Yiddishkeit should do some thinking about what's going on?

seniormom

Wed, May 03 2006, 12:09 am

Quote:

You don't think that a family that has a number of children leaving Yiddishkeit should do some thinking about what's going on?

seniormom

Wed, May 03 2006, 12:15 am

sorry for the multiple posts--there must have been a problem with the site...didn't allow me to send the message, so I kept trying, and a litle gremlin saved them all and sent them later Twisted Evil

(I tried to delete some of them, but wasn't permitted to--have to find out how to get past the block)

morningstar

Wed, May 03 2006, 7:28 am

Senior Mom, you bring up an important point.
Experience is often the best teacher.
But experience takes time to acquire.

Adolescence hits many parents who have figured out childhood quite well like a ton of bricks. Much more is at stake when parents make an error of judgement. At the same time, the old rules don't work anymore.
And differences between children are magnified-- what works like a charm for some backfires with others.

Desperation ( or as you so aptly put it, putting out fires) makes it difficult to see the large picture. Empahty and support ( rather than judgmentalism and blame) can make it much more likely that these parents will be able to get the help they need.

amother

Wed, May 03 2006, 8:36 am

I became more modern in my teens - in dress and in my social circle but I always kept shabbos n kosher. my chassidish younger brother used to criticise me alot and I hated him for it.
and I have seen that kids going off the derech seems to run in families but I dont know why. there are families where 5 or 6 kids fry-out for a while in their teens but when they get married they all settle down and became religious again.

Tzippy

Mon, May 08 2006, 7:39 am

One of the things you can do is highlight the fun, beautiful, enjoyable parts of frumkeit. Singing Shabbos zemiros, greeting a fellow Jew with a huge welcome, cultivating an attitude that being a Jew is the greatest thing to be!
Even though you feel pain at whatever he is going thru, constantly show him the beauty in being a Jew. Many times in yeshiva boys are not taught to value the end product of all their studying because it is a given that they realize how precious a Jewish lifestyle is. When a boy begins showing signs like your brother is, he needs a major dose of awareness and love for yiddishkeit. It may take a while, but the efforts are worth it.
I know of a boy who came back from the secular olam because he had to sit shiva. He gained a new perspective on yiddishkeit. Another boy came back because he realized that his best chance to raise a refined family would be to marry a frum girl. Still another came back because he was given some hard knocks when encountering the non jewish way of life, and he saw what a Torah life really is all about.
I feel for your pain, and will daven that he comes back quickly!

Motek

Tue, May 09 2006, 3:05 pm

Tzippy wrote:

Many times in yeshiva boys are not taught to value the end product of all their studying because it is a given that they realize how precious a Jewish lifestyle is.

They're not taught to value the end product? What do you mean by that? Shouldn't they be taught to value what they are doing in the present?

And is it about realizing how precious our "lifestyle" is? lifestyle?! Confused

As for the examples you give of those who came back - it's wonderful that they came back but at least two of the reasons are so superficial (to raise a refined family and because he was given some hard knocks) that they are hardly the firm foundation one would want a child to have. How long can such flimsy reasons last?

Where is G-d in all this?

amother

Tue, May 09 2006, 3:29 pm

op here:
My brother is already 21, for some reason this happened later on in life for him. We dont live in the same city, so its not like I can invite him over for Shabbos or anything. He's a good person, and this came as quite a shock. I really hope he does change.