deviant behavior/ red flag for abuse or normal exploration?

amother

Sun, Oct 25 2009, 12:09 am

a recent incident occurred and I wanted to hear amothers advice and opinions regarding the matter. if your sensitive, dont read this.

a 5 yr old girl playing with 2 friends boy age 4 and boy age 7. (boy age 7 has previous history of bullying girl age 5, bullying was resolved). boy age 7 suggests going upstairs to a private room for a secret. (mom is home, busy with baby.) in the room, boy locks the door and tells others they must expose themselves. boy age 4 listens, girl age 5 refuses, says mommy wont let. boy age 7 threatens to continue bullying her if she doesn't listen. (boy age 4 just there, no action from him) girl listens, and pulls up dress and pulls down underwear. boy age 7 tells her to lay on floor, face down. boy age 7 feels her "down there" with 2 fingers, then she gets up and pulls up underwear. everyone leaves the room and they go play with others elsewhere.

my biggest question is how to judge the behavior of the 7 year old boy. is this normal as in kids exploring their privates? or is this an indication of deviant behavior, possible signs that the boy was molested? also, what would be the best way to deal with this? if you were the mother of the 7 year old boy, how would you want to be informed of the incident? also, how does the fact that he threatened her to do something or ELSE play into the scene? (as opposed to a bunch of kids who decide together hey lets get undressed? )

I'm really looking for concrete practical advice how to deal, and how abnormal/normal this behavior is.

Atali

Sun, Oct 25 2009, 12:29 am

amother wrote:

What is your connection to the story? Are you the mother of the girl? Are the children related to each other?

mimivan

Sun, Oct 25 2009, 2:14 am

1. better do this or else, huge red flag..
2. actual putting fingers in may indicate more than mere curiosity
3. Even if it is curiosity, it is not appropriate and must be stopped (I guess I'm saying, one can find out later on if it was the result of molestation or not...the fact is, the child did something inappropriate and it should not be continued)
4. Yes, you MUST inform the mother of the 7 year old.
5. the 7 year old must not be allowed to play unsupervised until this issue is resolved.
6. the younger children should also be watched carefully for a while...the victim may act out on someone else until she understands that it is something that should not be done.

Last edited by mimivan on Sun, Oct 25 2009, 2:16 am; edited 1 time in total

mimivan

Sun, Oct 25 2009, 2:18 am

One thing that bothers me a bit...even if it is curiosity, does that make it okay somehow? This is going way far for curiosity in my book, and I would think the first priority would be sorting out this situation with the kids before trying to figure out if the 7 year old was molested or not...sure, that's a priority, but not the first one..

and if it did come out of his mind, does that make what he did any less severe?

HindaRochel

Sun, Oct 25 2009, 2:28 am

mimivan wrote:

I agree with mimivan here.
This needs to be looked into and the 7 year old should not be playing unsupervised.

amother

Sun, Oct 25 2009, 8:43 am

op here

I am the mother of the girl she told me the story after it happened. the 2 boys are brothers.

the thing is, since this boy has a history of bullying my DD and the parents weren't soooo receptive to hear about bad behavior from their DS, I wanted to know what would be the BEST way to inform them of this without them getting defensive. IMHO they are not the type to go have him evaluated, but I could be wrong.

I guess I am really looking for ways in how to say this to the parents, what wording can I use that will come across as straightforward as possible to suggest he always be supervised, or checking it out. or if the incident should be reported to a third party. I am also concerned about the fact that he could be doing this to his brother continuosly, or other kids. how far do I go with this? is just informing the parents enough?

mimivan

Sun, Oct 25 2009, 9:05 am

This is difficult if the parents are likely to be in denial...not so receptive.
Can you think of a good third party? I don't have any ideas right offhand..
Perhaps you could discuss it with a trusted Rav. This is quite serious and b'h your daughter told you about it.
Even if they weren't so receptive, you might have no other choice than to talk to the parents. Be very calm and friendly (even if you don't feel like it) and I think maybe you could say something like..Listen, if it were my kid, I would want to know, so I am going to tell you something that may surprise you...(after the polite introductions, make no bones about the fact you are serious about discussing it, so she can't dismiss what you say)..
urge her to get the older son some kind of therapy.
I know she is likely to be unreceptive, but you have to say your piece

And maybe your dd should have a few sessions of therapy to work through what happened to her and to make sure she doesn't allow anyone to touch her inappropriately again.

Hug

gryp

Sun, Oct 25 2009, 9:52 am

FWIW, normal exploration doesn't include threatening.
And maybe I'm wrong but IMHO 7 yrs old is too old for "normal exploration."
Secondly, something tells me that the poor little brother being so compliant means that this wasn't the first time he's seen this scene.

Why is a 7 yr old playing with a younger girl and his younger brother? Where is this kid's friends? Putting that together with the bullying you mentioned, plus this incident, this child needs help and fast.

I hope your daughter is okay. It sounds like you heard her story and didn't freak out on her, and just that will help her very much to not be traumatized by this.

amother

Sun, Oct 25 2009, 10:01 am

I am not the OP, but I have my own story.

When I was younger- probably around 8 years old, but I have no idea- my neighbor-friends (2 brothers) took me into a room and closed the door and asked me to pull down my underwear so they could touch.

One of them said he'd hide in the closet so that he doesn't see (obviously looking out). I wasn't forcd into it, I think I thought it was weird but not harmful. Till this day I can remember his smooth fingers patting me... and then his mother barged into the room- screaming and very upset. I remember leaving their house knowing I did something wrong, not sure what... I don't know if she called my parents. I do know that I continued playing with them after that.

I would think that's normal exploration- is it the same or different as OP?

imasinger

Sun, Oct 25 2009, 10:28 am

To the second amother -- if you didn't request it, then you were a victim.

To both amothers -- from what I know, normal exploration might include looking at or touching oneself. If a child doesn't have similar age or younger siblings of the opposite gender, then they might be curious for a peek. Going into a closet, or touching like what you both described is not normal.

OP, whether or not you confront the mother, please do not let your DD play there again unsupervised. I agree with what mimivan said.

pacifier

Sun, Oct 25 2009, 12:07 pm

Telling the boys' mother and not inviting them again is not enough.
You should confront the boys, tell them that your daughter told you about what they did, that it is not acceptable and specially threatening to bully someone when they refuse you something is not right at all.
At the same time, tell your daughter she has a right to say no. If she ever get stuck again with a bully, she should yell, bang on the door, bite and hit the bully, whatever,...

marina

Sun, Oct 25 2009, 12:18 pm

1. The 7 year old's behavior is not within normal range, imo, b/c of the feeling with the fingers- that alone is something normal for exploration for much, much older children (11-12). The threatening could just be a part of his bullying personality, but the finger thing is concerning b/c it suggests a level of knowledge that is beyond what a 7 year old should be exposed to.

2. In your situation, I would try to speak with the 7 year old BEFORE talking to his parents. I would speak to him kindly, in a nice way and try to find who has done/shown similar things to him.
After you have more information, then speak to the parents. It could be just that he's seen his older brother's [filth] magazine. It could be much worse.

3. Don't expect too much from the parents. Either they know already or they will be overwhelmed. Or both. Either way, you will probably make an enemy out of them.

SavtaHelen

Sun, Oct 25 2009, 3:26 pm

This is a very difficult situation and I have no clue what you should do. But in my opinion, you should NOT approach the boys directly. Who knows how the parents would interpret this and you could wind up being accused of child abuse!!

I would approach the parents, I think. Based on their reactions, you may have a clue what to do next.

Your resposibility is to your DD. Practice different situations with her where she learns to say NO loud and clearly!

Good luck to you!