deviant behavior/ red flag for abuse or normal exploration?

Tamiri

Sun, Oct 25 2009, 3:35 pm

OP, this is deviant behavior. No 7 yo boy that I know (and I have 5 of my own, plus add that to all the boys I have know over the years I have been a parent) would DREAM of touching a girl's private part like that. Little boys may parade around their own eivar, of which they are very proud, and maybe ask "ya wanna see", but to go and do what that 7 yo did is totally out of whack in my opinion. Couple that with his knowing this is "bad" and needs to be kept a secret, and you have a boy in serious trouble.
Since your daughter was molested (yes, she was molested) I would call social services. I think the boy needs more help than his parents can give him. And you never know: one of them may be molesting him!
Just this past Friday the children in DS #5's gan of 4 and 5 yo children had a play put on for them by a social worker: "My Body Belongs to ME". In it, a scenario like you one you described arose, and the children were instructed to say NO NO NO and not give in to threats. They were told to NEVER let ANYONE but a doctor or parent pull their pants down, for any reason because their privates are PRIVATE.
Your daughter did the 100% correct thing in telling you. The onus is now upon you to (1) tell her how wonderful it is that she did not keep a "bad" secret to herself and (2) get someone onto that boy's case.

greenfire

Sun, Oct 25 2009, 3:41 pm

this boy is obviously troubled and possibly the victim himself of s-xual molestation ...

playing means everyone consents NOT that someone is bullied and threatened ...

I cannot imagine how a 7 year old would know to put his fingers in her v@gina ...

he needs help before it's too late not to mention constant controlled supervision ...

she needs to feel safe and watched

many times parents are in denial - or overwhelmed and simply shut down and hope it goes away ... you need to bring in the mental health professionals - ASAP

keep your daughter safe as well as your neighborhood ...

amother

Mon, Oct 26 2009, 9:55 am

On this topic - I have an 8 year old DD, and there are various boys in the family and neighborhood who come to play with her. Since I want to protect her, I asked our Rav for some guidance on what is/isn't appropriate. He said the following:

When boys and girls are playing together, the following conditions must be kept:

1. They should play in an open area. No closed doors, no closets, no secrets at all.
2. An adult should be nearby, semi-supervising.
3. Absolutely no physical contact. Playing board games, cards, legos, whatever....no doctoring, no touching.

If any of these are not being met, the playmate should be terminated.

I have told my DD about these conditions, so she knows not to go to a room when playing with the boys, etc....

I was horrified by the OP's post. I'm not saying she's traumatized for life or anything - but it must stop right here. B"H that she told you about it - that shows good communication. However, I would take this further. She should have screamed, yelled for help, even bit him, when he pressed her to cooperate. The 7 year old would definitely be unwelcome in my home.

amother

Tue, Oct 27 2009, 12:02 am

Op here:

thank you everyone for advice and info. My first thought was that this behavior is abnormal but I wanted to double check that I was right so I can feel more confident when I speak to patents, like I don't want them to say "oh this is normal for boys"

I also consulted a couple of professionals who often deal with this on the matter. It seems like the best course of action is for me and Dh yo go have a chat with boys' parents. Basically if they deny or play down the issue we may say that we will notify school and other neighbors. I am hoping they are receptive and willing to get professional evaluations and treatment for their child as well as 24/7 supervision.

Thank you again for advice and support

Rachie1

Thu, Oct 29 2009, 6:05 pm

If the bully was 13 and the girl was 11, you would have screaming at the parents 10 seconds after your daughter told you this story.

His parents need to know ASAP. He may be doing this to others. This goes beyond the line of "lets play doctor" stuff, which is mutual and kids don't even know what they are doing can be considered "s-xual". And his parents will probably deny deny deny, but you can't stop.

Annie

Thu, Oct 29 2009, 10:18 pm

The door closing, brother as submissive witness and the threats are definitely not normal. Fingers inside, also NOT normal.

Good luck when you talk to parents. Definitely get someone else involved if they're not receptive. Again, good job parenting that your dd came to tell you what happened.

Atali

Thu, Oct 29 2009, 10:39 pm

The OP said that he put his fingers "down there" but did not specify that he actually went inside. OP, did your DD say where he touched?

One of the members here in the medical profession could clarify this, but I doubt that a seven-year-old is physically capable of having proper intercourse and would be very surprised if he would attempt it.

amother

Thu, Oct 29 2009, 10:43 pm

Atali wrote:

Because I'm wondering, if she couldn't see what he was doing only feel, how did she know it's fingers? And how did he know what specific part to aim for? And how would she know what "inside" is and feels?

Oh boy, I'm aborting this thread, I'm literally freaking out!

Atali

Thu, Oct 29 2009, 10:45 pm

amother wrote:

Atali wrote:

I would assume she could feel the difference

amother

Thu, Oct 29 2009, 10:47 pm

op here

lets get it straight I believe he only touched her not inside. she said he just put his hand there but didnt specify. I think he is too little to understand that its even possible to insert something, he doesnt come from a home with TV/movies/secular books with graphic information so I HIGHLY doubt this kid has a clue what s*x is.

as for dealing with it, I reiterated to my DD never to play there again, I work so my babysitter is aware of the situation as well. my DH is reluctant to talk to parents, we think they will deny or of course when they confront their son he will give an alternate version so what to do.

I guess I will have to be the mean one and tell his mom, my friend, what happened, and gently suggest she bring him to a psychologist to find out where he got that idea. I dont know what to do this is so uncomfortable to deal with,

grin

Fri, Oct 30 2009, 4:22 am

qeenB wrote:

as difficult as it my be for you to tell your friend what her son did, I think that most responsible parents would want such behavior brought to their attention.

absolutely! chances are, either he's been abused outside of the home and they need to take know in order to care of it or he's being abused at home! (I think you'll be able to guess which it is by their reaction...)

mimivan

Fri, Oct 30 2009, 5:27 am

amother wrote:

It doesn't matter how "frum" the environment is. Kids can get these ideas by being abused or exposed to [filth] somehow (and yes, it can happen outside the home...I recall a terrible story about some 12 year old boys who took a little boy out of cheder and made him watch a porno film on a phone (none of these boys have internet at home...one of them got access to a "smart phone")...so you can make no assumptions about what they might have been exposed to...[filth] is very freely available to all nowadays.

Yes, you should tell the parents, but go with your husband and try to find some resource who can advise you on how best to confront the parents. There has to be some kind of help network to help give you advice.
b'hatzlacha...I am thinking about you and your child.

marina

Fri, Oct 30 2009, 7:04 am

Quote:

as for dealing with it, I reiterated to my DD never to play there again, I work so my babysitter is aware of the situation as well. my DH is reluctant to talk to parents, we think they will deny or of course when they confront their son he will give an alternate version so what to do.

I guess I will have to be the mean one and tell his mom, my friend, what happened, and gently suggest she bring him to a psychologist to find out where he got that idea. I dont know what to do this is so uncomfortable to deal with

,

Is it possible for you to speak with the boy in a kind way, BEFORE you talk to the parents? It might be the only time he will admit if anyone has been abusing him. After you speak to the parents, they may very well scream at him and he will freak out and not speak to anyone about it.

Tefila

Mon, Dec 14 2009, 9:23 pm

GR wrote:

FWIW, normal exploration doesn't include threatening.
And maybe I'm wrong but IMHO 7 yrs old is too old for "normal exploration."Secondly, something tells me that the poor little brother being so compliant means that this wasn't the first time he's seen this scene.

Why is a 7 yr old playing with a younger girl and his younger brother? Where is this kid's friends? Putting that together with the bullying you mentioned, plus this incident, this child needs help and fast.

I hope your daughter is okay. It sounds like you heard her story and didn't freak out on her, and just that will help her very much to not be traumatized by this.

I happen to agree!!!!!!!!!!!

Hodu Lashem

Tue, Dec 15 2009, 9:31 am

OP, IMO Marina may be right about speaking to the child directly and asking him in a kind way how he knew about that kind of thing. It may be a close relative touching him in that way and he might deny it because he may "get in trouble" if he tells. So if you are able to and you feel comfortable doing so, I think it would be beneficial for the 7 yr old if you try and find out where this is coming from.

In any case, you are in a tough situation and I really feel for you. Please let us know how it goes and what happens.

amother

Copper

Sat, Jan 28 2017, 10:07 pm

Here's my take
Going to the parents is not enough. You do need to go to Child Services. Speak to a Rav first, with a recording device, and explain the situation. Other daughters may be suffering in secret. This child is way too advanced in his carnal knowledge for his age. Social services have assistance for these cases, but his parents are hardly likely to go themselves. Try and get the Rav to give a heter in writing, but if he won't you will at least have a recording so you can't be thrown under the bus afterwards