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Secular studies

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yehudis

Tue, Jan 18 2005, 7:46 pm

I am starting a new thread about it, because I don't want to limit it to the Chabad view only. But Lubavitchers are welcome to post here too Smile

.

I found this quote very intriguing. It's from the article on the role of women in changing times discussed in the other thread. The article is at www.orot.com/nkeva.html

Quote:

Kol HaTor states: “So our master, (the Vilna Gaon) told us: These are the things that bring to the sanctification of G-d’s Name in ikvesa demeshicha (the period directly prior to the coming of Moshiach): the building of Jerusalem, the in-gathering of the exiles, the flowering of the Land of Israel, the perfection of character traits, the revelation of the codes of the Torah, (the hidden messages in the Torah) and the study of the seven forms of wisdom”.148

The seven forms of wisdom are:

l. mathematics

2. formations and putting together (I.e. inventions)

3. medicine and the wisdom of plants

4. grammar, correct expression, and composition

5. music and holiness (through correct music, one’s soul can attach itself to holiness. The converse is also true – animalistic music arouses animalistic instincts and unholiness.)

6. the wisdom of repair and integration

7. the wisdom of how the physical connects with the spiritual; psychology149

These forms of wisdom, says Kol Ha’Tor, were all made known to Yosef, who was taught by an angel before he stood before Pharoh, and they are connected to the task of his heir, Moshiach ben Yosef.150 Science, and all forms of earthly wisdom are all part of the Torah, and although they constitute its lowest level, Kol HaTor states that knowledge of them is necessary to reach understanding of the Torah’s higher levels.151 Furthermore, the Vilna Gaon taught, if Torah scholars will become masters of these forms of wisdom, this will be a great sanctification of G-d’s Name before the gentile nations, of which the Torah says: “For this is your wisdom and your understanding in the eyes of the nations.”152 Kol HaTor continues: “. . . and why should we leave this great property of our Holy Torah – or part of it – to others, and the Name of Heaven will be desecrated and the disgrace to Torah will become great”.153

BTW, I sent them an email asking about footnotes. I'll let you know if I'll get them.

But anyway, there is certainly a view within traditional Judaism that studying secular subjects is not only permissible, but desireable. I am looking for more sources on this, but does anybody else have anything on the subject?

yehudis

Tue, Jan 18 2005, 8:36 pm

Another interesting article on secular studies:

http://www.yutorah.org/_shiuri.....2Epdf

In case anybody is hesitant to read it because it's from YU -- Rabbi Willig quotes lots of sources, is very honest, and even criticizes YU at some point.

rydys

Tue, Jan 18 2005, 10:33 pm

When I was in medical school I was told that I could study for exams on Shabbos because medicine is one of the shiva chochmos. (I didn't but I could have). I think one key issue here is to realize that these chochmos are contained within Torah and can be derived from Torah. For example, the Skverer Rebbe knows a tremendous amount about medicine, and he never went to medical school--he learned it all from Torah. The Vilna Gaon wrote math books and developed certain parts of math theory.

In my opinion, if taught properly with a Torah hashkofa, there is great benefit to learning these subjects. When I was in high school we had an amazing principal, Rabbi Binyomin Steinberg z"l. He was able to come into any secular class at any point in the lesson and tie it into torah. It is all connected, we just have to guide our children to see the connection.

yehudis

Tue, Jan 18 2005, 11:21 pm

rudys -- how interesting! Which high school did you go to?

ForeverYoung
Guest

Tue, Jan 18 2005, 11:32 pm

ryds - well said!
and I wish all kids had such principal!!! 8)

gryp

Wed, Jan 19 2005, 9:08 am

rydys- thats funny. my mother had the same principal!

613

Wed, Jan 19 2005, 11:09 am

my sis had him, too. I unfortunately, entered Bais Yaakov of Baltimore after he was niftar.

rydys

Wed, Jan 19 2005, 12:52 pm

Wow! What a lot of Baltimorians here! He really was amazing. Chanoch Teller wrote a book about him (A Matter of Principal). His ability to tie anything into Yiddishkeit wasn't only in the classroom. When we went on field trips, he would talk about whatever we were seeing, even grass and trees, and show us how Hashem cares for us so much to make such a beautiful world for us.

gryp

Wed, Jan 19 2005, 1:39 pm

I read that book..... Very Happy

Last edited by gryp on Wed, Jan 19 2005, 1:44 pm; edited 1 time in total

gryp

Wed, Jan 19 2005, 1:56 pm

Quote:

What a lot of Baltimorians here!

not me! but you probably know my many cousins....

Motek

Wed, Jan 19 2005, 5:40 pm

Quote:

there is certainly a view within traditional Judaism that studying secular subjects is not only permissible, but desireable.

even the quote I posted in the other secular studies thread, from the Tanya, says that if these studies are for one's avoda, for one's Torah study, that's fine

the thing is, how many people TRULY study secular studies for the sake of their avodas Hashem?

the Ha'yom Yom for 7 Shevat says:

Quote:

When the Alter Rebbe [author of Tanya] was nine he studied geometry and astronomy. At ten he composed a calendar for fifteen years. When he was twelve years old, it happenned that he lectured publicly on Rambam's laws of kidush hachodesh.1 The preeminent Torah-scholars who were present at that time in the study-hall were utterly overwhelmed.

yehudis

Wed, Jan 19 2005, 6:59 pm

Motek wrote:

even the quote I posted in the other secular studies thread, from the Tanya, says that if these studies are for one's avoda, for one's Torah study, that's fine

Motek, could you elaborate on that? I am trying to understand. The quote you posted from the Tanya talked about secular studies being harmful. So does it mean that they are inherently harmful? But if you are saying that it depends on your purpose, how can you say that they are inherently harmful?

Also, do you think there is a way to reconcile the Tanya view and the Vilna Gaon's view? Because the Vilna Gaon says that they are actually part of the Torah, but the lowest part.

Quote:

the thing is, how many people TRULY study secular studies for the sake of their avodas Hashem?

Well, that depends on the way the schools teach them.

And some schools have a big problem -- they teach secular studies, but the children are taught that those subjects are not important, so they are rude to the teachers and don't really study. Which is not only a waste of time, but a chilul Hashem. IMHO, it's better not to teach them at all than to teach them in such a way.

There is a book written by a non-Jewish teacher who describes his experience teaching in a chassidic school for boys. I haven't read the whole thing, but it's very embarrasing to read it.

Motek

Wed, Jan 19 2005, 7:15 pm

yehudis wrote:

I am trying to understand. The quote you posted from the Tanya talked about secular studies being harmful. So does it mean that they are inherently harmful? But if you are saying that it depends on your purpose, how can you say that they are inherently harmful?

you will see that I added the rest of the quote in that other thread. I'll post it here bec. it answers your question:

The chapter in Tanya continues like this:

Quote:

unless one employs them (these sciences) as a useful instrument, viz., as a means of earning a more affluent livelihood with which to be able to serve G‑d, or unless he knows how to apply them (the sciences) in the service of G‑d or to his better understanding of His Torah; e.g., he utilizes mathematics to better understand the laws of the Sanctification of the New Moon.

This is the reason why Maimonides and Nachmanides, of blessed memory, and their peers, engaged in them (in the sciences — since they were able to utilize this knowledge in the service of G‑d and Torah).

I put those words in bold because what tends to happen is, people say: Oh! So I can study secular stuff to make more money, great!

what they skip is the avodas Hashem part Confused

Quote:

Also, do you think there is a way to reconcile the Tanya view and the Vilna Gaon's view? Because the Vilna Gaon says that they are actually part of the Torah, but the lowest part.

EVERYTHING is in Torah, as it says in Pirkei Avos, "turn it and turn it for everything is in it [in Torah]" so I don't know that they are disagreeing

Quote:

Well, that depends on the way the schools teach them.

yes, and when frum people go off to college, how many do you think are going in order to further their avodas Hashem?

and all agree with the severity of bittul Torah, it's halacha!

ForeverYoung
Guest

Wed, Jan 19 2005, 7:16 pm

I'm with Yehudis here.

Not looking fwd to when English studies will start......

roza

Wed, Jan 19 2005, 9:25 pm

Motek,
where does it say in Tanya or elsewhere that one can't study (and who really learns secular subjects in our time- most ppl just pass tests and go on with their lifes) secular subjects for parnasa reasons?

(also how many people TRULY eat for the sake of their avodas Hashem ? remember 7th chapter of Tanya ?)

Motek

Wed, Jan 19 2005, 9:41 pm

roza wrote:

where does it say in Tanya or elsewhere that one can't study secular subjects for parnasa reasons?

did you read the quote? it says you CAN study secular subjects for parnasa reasons:

Quote:

"as a means of earning a more affluent livelihood with which to be able to serve G‑d"

Quote:

(and who really learns secular subjects in our time- most ppl just pass tests and go on with their lifes)

really now ... they pass the tests without learning the subjects?

Quote:

(also how many people TRULY eat for the sake of their avodas Hashem ? remember 7th chapter of Tanya ?)

therefore what?

roza

Wed, Jan 19 2005, 9:49 pm

Quote:

really now ... they pass the tests without learning the subjects?

you know studying not beyiyun LOL

just memorizing the facts LOL

thanks for clarifying the parnasa reasons.

Quote:

Quote:
(also how many people TRULY eat for the sake of their avodas Hashem ? remember 7th chapter of Tanya ?)

therefore what?

we still eat chockalat cake LOL

Motek

Wed, Jan 19 2005, 10:15 pm

roza wrote:

just memorizing the facts

doesn't work for calculus! (among other subjects!)

Quote:

we still eat chockalat cake

and we don't eat it l'sheim shomayim!? shock

speak for yourself! Wink

but seriously, so we have to work on that!

yehudis

Wed, Jan 19 2005, 11:21 pm

Motek, I actually looked up the Tanya inside (you're supposed to be very impressed at this point Smile

-- it's very hard to read for someone with no background in chassidus). The book I have (it's actually my husband's) has an English translation, but it's a bit different from yours.

So I have some questions. First of all, what he talks about is "chachmas haumos ovdei gilulim." Does he define this somewhere? Because other sources talk about "chachmos", but they don't mention idol worshippers, and I am wondering if they might talking about different things.

Second, he says that these sciences "metame" parts of one's soul (?). BTW, what is the whole thing about shattering the vessels about? Either way, if they inherently contaminate the soul, how can they ever be beneficial if used for the right purpose? I mean, either they are pure or impure. How can it depend on the purpose?

Third, he says that using them as a tool to serve Hashem is permitted. So what exactly was he talking about above? Studying them just for fun? Sort of lishma? What exactly is the difference?

Motek wrote:

I put those words in bold because what tends to happen is, people say: Oh! So I can study secular stuff to make more money, great!

what they skip is the avodas Hashem part Confused

I don't see what this has to do with secular studies. Doesn't this apply to everyone who works to make a living, whether they've studied for it or not? I understood the quote to mean that _making a living_ is supposed to be for the sake of serving Hashem better.

Quote:

Also, do you think there is a way to reconcile the Tanya view and the Vilna Gaon's view? Because the Vilna Gaon says that they are actually part of the Torah, but the lowest part.

EVERYTHING is in Torah, as it says in Pirkei Avos, "turn it and turn it for everything is in it [in Torah]" so I don't know that they are disagreeing

But the Vilna Gaon says that they are parts of the Torah whereas the Tanya says that they are impure. Unless they are talking about different things.

Quote:

yes, and when frum people go off to college, how many do you think are going in order to further their avodas Hashem?

College is a whole different story -- there are too many things going on in secular colleges besides the studying that there are more serious problems with going there than lack of proper motivation. For the purpose of this discussion, let's talk about the studying itself, assuming it's in a frum environment.

FWIW, I spent some time studying the foundations of math and computer science -- the theoretical stuff, where there are open questions that nobody knows the answers to. I felt that it was a religious experience trying to understand these things and realizing how limited our human minds are, and how limited any mathematical system must be. Oh, and there was no problem of bitul Torah there -- doesn't apply to women Smile

gryp

Thu, Jan 20 2005, 9:49 am

Yehudis- how can your Tanya be different? unless somehow you ended up with one of the forged messed-up copies Very Happy

what is different about it?
I have never seen a Tanya that is different.
by the way, Tanya in English is on chabad.org if people want to look things up easily.

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