"Vayomer"- "He said" or "AND he sai

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How do YOU translate "vayomer"?

He said

[ 10 ]

AND he said

90%

[ 96 ]

Total Votes : 106

hadasa

Mon, Nov 02 2009, 11:57 pm

There seems to be a controversy as to whether the "vav hahipuch", which converts past to future and vice versa, is also a "vav hachibur" (and). Some translations seem to consider it as both only in the middle of a Passuk, but not in the beginning.
OTOH, Onkelos seems to consistently leave in the "vav", even though he converts the verb himself (unless I'm misunderstanding the Aramaic grammar). If so, it seems surprising that there is any controversy at all.

Any thoughts or information on this? How do YOU translate it?

mummiedearest

Tue, Nov 03 2009, 12:03 am

well, in school we always said and. but I don't honestly see the big deal either way. it seems that those who translate it as "and he said" consider "and" to be a legitimate word for the beginning of a biblical sentence, even if it's not connected to the previous topic. so the only question I see is, does the presence of a vav indicating the word "and" indicate a specific link to the previous topic? in which case you'd have to make a study of the whole chumash before finding an answer. if "and" is not significant as a connector, I'd see it more as biblical grammar.

natmichal

Tue, Nov 03 2009, 1:23 am

Not sure, but "yomer" is future tense, and I learned in school that the "vav" transforms the future into past - which would mean "he said"

hadasa

Tue, Nov 03 2009, 2:55 am

mummiedearest wrote:

I don't quite see the point of having "Biblical grammar" rules in English. The word "and" in English signifies connection. If the vav does not signify connection, what's the point of translating it as "and" in English (or Yiddish)?
You wouldn't translate the Hei which signifies wonderment as "the", and then call it "Biblical grammar".

Inspired

Tue, Nov 03 2009, 5:20 am

natmichal wrote:

Not sure, but "yomer" is future tense, and I learned in school that the "vav" transforms the future into past - which would mean "he said"

Right, as Op wrote that is called a "vav hamihapech".

sarahd

Tue, Nov 03 2009, 6:17 am

My first instinct was to say, translate it without the "and", which is indeed how I did it when I taught. But now that you say that Onkelos leaves in the vav....hmmm. Tzarich iyun.

mltjm

Tue, Nov 03 2009, 8:40 am

vayomer- un er hut gezugt Music

....whatever the technicality is, it just wouldn't be the same for me if you couldn't translate it like that

Isramom8

Tue, Nov 03 2009, 11:45 am

One teacher told us it doesn't include the "and".

But I just checked, and Binat Hamikraot, Bnei Brak's accepted set of Ivrit-Ivrit translation booklets, leaves it in.

gryp

Tue, Nov 03 2009, 1:15 pm

mltjm wrote:

vayomer- un er hut gezugt Music

....whatever the technicality is, it just wouldn't be the same for me if you couldn't translate it like that

LOL!
My son does Chumash for fun after and before school, and it's coming out of my ears at this point. (Not that I mind much, I can think of worse things.)

Sorry, hadasa, I'm not much help. I can ask people I know though.

Tue, Nov 03 2009, 1:23 pm

removed

Last edited by gz on Wed, Feb 27 2019, 7:46 am; edited 1 time in total

Isramom8

Tue, Nov 03 2009, 4:24 pm

gz wrote:

I think the vav is always 'and'
sometimes it is ALSO a vav hamihapech.

this may be a silly question, but:
Why couldn't it have just said 'v'umar'-and he said, instead of 'vayomer', with a vav hamihapech...?

Because when it's "v'" and then the past tense, it means the future tense. Wink

Tue, Nov 03 2009, 5:24 pm

removed

Last edited by gz on Wed, Feb 27 2019, 7:45 am; edited 1 time in total

mummiedearest

Tue, Nov 03 2009, 6:10 pm

hadasa wrote:

mummiedearest wrote:

you're responding to a post written by a woman who was up way to late on imamother last night Smile

there is no point in having biblical rules in english, but they are there regardless. english is a ridiculous language.

hadasa

Wed, Nov 04 2009, 7:06 am

gz wrote:

After doing some surfing, I have come up with the following answer to this question:

"amar" is past perfect - "he had said", I.e. talking about an earlier time than the one the Passuk is talking about.
"vayomer" is past - "he said"

This is an eye-opener to me, and gives a different understanding of many Pesukim. No time to elaborate now, but I'll give it a shot later.

BTW, grammatically, there is a difference in pronounciation: ve-A-mar - future, ve-a-MAR - past. Thismay not be obvious to us Ashkenazim who are not makpid on the grammatically correct stressing of syllables, but the difference is there.

Isramom8

Wed, Nov 04 2009, 7:11 am

"Veamar bayom hahu hinei Elokeinu zeh kivinu lo veyoshieinu" - future.

"Vehaya beacharis hayamim nachon yihyeh har beis hashem..." - future.

"Vehaya Hashem lemelech" - future.

Wed, Nov 04 2009, 7:15 am

removed

Last edited by gz on Wed, Feb 27 2019, 8:00 am; edited 1 time in total

hadasa

Sun, Nov 08 2009, 7:48 am

OK, I'm still looking around for answers. It seems I'm right about Onkelos, but if that's the case, how come so many reputable translations leave out the "and"? No answer to that, so far. In any case, I'm leaving it in when I teach.

I was wrong about the pronunciation of ve'amar, it seems the stress is on the last syllable whether it's past or future, and it's just the context that helps differentiate. The different pronunciations are in forms like "ve'ahavTA" (future) as opposed to "ve'aHAVta" (past).

As to the past and past perfect, the p. p. is found most often with "asher" or similar. E.g. "vayakam vayelech el hamakom asher amar lo ha'Elokim". He went to the place which Hashem had told him (earlier).
In those examples it's very clear. Check out "asher asah, asher bara" in Kiddush, obviously it's what Hashem had made, had created before Shabbos.
Without "asher" it's harder to find clear examples, but one is in our Parshah: "vaHashem berach es Avraham bakol. Vayomer Avraham el avdo etc." Hashem had blessed Avraham earlier in everything (which according to Rashi refers to his son, Yitzchak), and now Avraham spoke to his servant (about going to find a wife etc.).

disclaimer: Nothing I'm writing here is Toras Moshe miSinai, these are ideas I found on the net, without being 100 percent certain of their validity, and it seems there are different opinions even amongst reputable, Frum experts.

Isramom8

Sun, Nov 08 2009, 9:35 am

"vaHashem berach es Avraham bakol

Wouldn't that be "vaShem"?

hadasa

Sun, Nov 08 2009, 10:43 am

Isramom8 wrote:

"vaHashem berach es Avraham bakol

Wouldn't that be "vaShem"?

I don't quite undertand the point of nitpicking this here, but if you want to, I'm game (I actually enjoy this type of thing).

First of all, my Chumash says neither. It says va-Yud-Kay-Vav-Kay.
Second of all, "Veha-" IMO does not turn into "Va-". "The house" is "vehabayit", not "vabayit".

What does swallow the Hay is a Lamed. "To the house" is "Labayit" not "lehabayit". Even in that case, I would not turn "LaHashem" into "LaShem", because "Hashem" is a substitute for the name of Hashem, and does not signify the noun "the name". IOW, it is "G-d had blessed Avraham", not "The Name had blessed Avraham".

It would probably be grammatically more correct to say "veHashem", because the reason there is a patach under the vav is that when pronouncing Hashem's name as A-do-nai, then there is a chataf patach under the Alef, which makes the vav before it take a patach (which is not the case when saying "Hashem"). Since I don't know how one would pronounce Hashem's name as written, I don't know if in that case the vav would take a patach or not.

I don't know if I've made myself clear, and I'm definitely not a great expert on Dikduk, but I have retained some things I learned in high school and seminary.

chavamom

Sun, Nov 08 2009, 1:34 pm

sarahd wrote:

My first instinct was to say, translate it without the "and", which is indeed how I did it when I taught. But now that you say that Onkelos leaves in the vav....hmmm. Tzarich iyun.

Yeah, that. I took two years of biblical Hebrew in college with a ba'al dikduk who taught that it would be "he said". But if you say Onkelos leaves it in....hmm.

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