Cutting hair before Upsherin

amother

Tue, Nov 10 2009, 1:42 pm

(I'm not sure if this topic belongs in this forum, but it's the closest I can find!)

Does anybody know the reason behind not cutting a boy's hair before his upsherin? If this is a minhag what is the source?
The reason why I'm asking is this: We're going to visit my husbands grandparents for Thanksgiving. They are not religious and are pretty much anti-chareidim and (privately) look down upon most of our customs. They love us and accept us as we are, but when it comes to anything religion related, they don't understand and become riled up.
My son's hair is growing long and unruly and I sometimes tie it back with a hair clip. They say it looks girly. (Personally, I really don't think it's such a big deal if he wears a clip or pony) Usually, I accept minhagim as is, and I don't question them too much. I know it's a big thing not to, but I don't want to sound ignorant if they ask why we don't just give him a haircut. I hate getting into lengthy explanation about our religious principles and beliefs which usually gets them riled up about 'religious Jews'.
So all I'm looking to tell them is a short, simple view on this minhag.
Can anybody shed some light?
Thanks

GetReal

Tue, Nov 10 2009, 1:46 pm

There are a few threads on this. I have heard that just as we don't eat the fruit of a tree until 3 years, we don't cut a boy's hair...ki ha'adam eitz hasadeh.

something else I have heard that I connected to more: leaving peyos is a big mitzvah. We wait until the boy is three, the beginning of his chinuch, to cut his hair, leaving the peyos, start wearing a yarmulkah and tzitzis etc

if you want a kabbalistic explanation let me know.

amother

Tue, Nov 10 2009, 1:52 pm

GetReal wrote:

There are ppl. have a minhag that they cut the hair by 2 yrs. Not sure the reason though.

auntie_em

Tue, Nov 10 2009, 4:15 pm

OP-

I also learned the comparison to a tree, so that is the explanation I give to people who will be open to it.
In your case, I don't know your age or anything...but if the parents are what I call "traditionally cultural Jewish" I go with the old stand-by explanation.

"We do it to confuse bad spirits and the Angel of Death".
Accurate? No..but it went over without much of a blink from many of our older rellies. Wink

amother

Tue, Nov 10 2009, 4:26 pm

GetReal wrote:

There are a few threads on this. I have heard that just as we don't eat the fruit of a tree until 3 years, we don't cut a boy's hair...ki ha'adam eitz hasadeh.

I didn't know that. Do you know the reason we wait 3 years?

And auntie_em, with regards to
"We do it to confuse bad spirits and the Angel of Death".

what in the world does that mean? I have to know what I'm talking about if I don't want to sound silly!! embarrassed

I don't know what to label them but I think they consider themselves 'reform' or 'conservative', I don't know.

auntie_em

Wed, Nov 11 2009, 9:23 pm

I remembered a friend of my grandmother's giving that explanation many years ago about a neighbor's child who had not had his hair cut. This was 20 some years ago.

I think it means that by letting a boy's hair grow so long that when the angel of death comes looking for the child, the angel will see his long hair and be fooled into thinking he is a she, and therefore a different child.

I didn't say it made sense. LOL

I think its a superstition, maybe, from previous generations.
Or maybe my grandma just had whacky friends...lol.

Marion

Thu, Nov 12 2009, 1:30 am

amother wrote:

GetReal wrote:

There are a few threads on this. I have heard that just as we don't eat the fruit of a tree until 3 years, we don't cut a boy's hair...ki ha'adam eitz hasadeh.

I didn't know that. Do you know the reason we wait 3 years?

Because that's what it says in the Torah. The first 3 years the fruit is forbidden to us; the 4th year it must be brought to the Cohanim. Effectively, today, we don't eat the fruit (in Israel) until the 5th year. Somewhere in Vayikra...someone with more book-knowledge can probably give you better directions to perek & pasuk.

shalhevet

Mon, Nov 16 2009, 7:53 am

GetReal wrote:

I also connect more to the second; the first is more kabbalistic.

By waiting to leave payos until three, the boy will always remember that he had his hair cut and not his peyos. If he had had his hair cut from when he was a baby, it wouldn't make the same impression of leaving the peyos. (Maybe this is why some wait till 2 - maybe they feel a child remembers at 2 as well.)

I can tell you that my sons most definitely changed after having their hair cut - not just on the outside. It really does have a spiritual effect on them.

BTW, according to the first explanation, you must wait till at least the 3rd birthday, not even a day before (that's what I thought the thread was going to be about when I opened it Smile

), just like you can't eat orla even a day before.

sv9506

Mon, Nov 16 2009, 10:05 am

Since as far as I know it is a minhag and not a halacha - why can't you just say "it is not a law, it is a custom and since we think it looks really cute we decided to follow it." In this way you also aren't insulting them (like by saying this is the law and since we follow it and you don't we are better than you - even though you don't mean that, they might take it that way.)

And then if they ask where the minhag comes from, you can say the thing about the tree or about chinuch.

tweety99

Mon, Nov 16 2009, 10:28 am

its not halacha at all. my dh tells me that it is a chassidish minhag and a lot of sfardim keep it aswell. over the yrs many litvish have also taken it on but it is by no means a halacha and nothing will happen if you cut ur sons hair early! depends on ur family minhag...

BinahYeteirah

Mon, Nov 16 2009, 11:09 am

auntie_em wrote:

Oh man, this is one thing I am the most embarrassed about when I was becoming frum. One of my coworkers asked me about upshernish and I gave this kind of explanation. I think I read about it in some crazy book. My progressive coworkers were all disgusted the the sexism of it, that boys are somehow more valuable to "bad spirits" and we can get them off the hook by making them look like girls. Anyway, I don't think I got it quite right even from that point of view, but it still makes me cringe that I told them that!

Besiyata Dishmaya

Mon, Nov 16 2009, 11:46 am

tweety99 wrote:

It's a Chassidic and Sephardic minhag thus kabbalistic and not al pi halacha.

I also heard that there are those who don't cut girls' hair before 3 for the same reason, whatever the reason is.

amother wrote:

There are ppl. have a minhag that they cut the hair by 2 yrs. Not sure the reason though.

That's minhag Skver.

amother

Mon, Nov 16 2009, 12:04 pm

OP, I think you should definitely ask a Rov!!

with my first son a few years ago, his hair was unruly long and sticky. but it was very thin and it was difficult to put it up (even though he had alot of hair, it was hard to get clips or bands to 'hold' it because the hair was so fine). it was frustrating for me, and much more so for him - his hair always knotty, in his eyes, etc. Well, DH asked our Rov, (Vishnitz Rov of Bnei Brak FYI) and he said there is no problem to cut it before 3, as long as you dont touch the peyos and as long as you dont teach him alef beis before 3. So we did, and I was happy, and he was happy. I did it myself, in the bathroom, no hoorah or "haircut" excitement about it (actually, he was playing with my phone the whole time, I dont think he even noticed what was going on), and his upsherin was still a big deal b'h and he danced in a cheder with all the boys and had the alef beis just the same....

amother

Mon, Nov 16 2009, 2:01 pm

My DS started pulling his hair out and sucking his thumb while holding on to the strands. After he got a couple of bald patches, I spoke to our rav, who said 100% it's a minhag, and one that in our circumstance, we are better off cutting it so that he can't pull it out. (It did help him stop.)

But I don't think you can cut it and then grow it back and have an upshernisht. I think you have to decide one way or the other.

Besiyata Dishmaya

Mon, Nov 16 2009, 2:25 pm

amother wrote:

Did you cut it like you do for a 3 year old leaving only the peyos? Did he wear a yarmulka?

The Yerushalmi minhag is to cut it only on Lag Be'omer in Meron. If he's born between Lag Be'omer and Rosh Hashoneh or for some, Chanukah, they cut it on that Lag Be'omer when he's not 3 yet, otherwise, they wait for the next Lag Be'omer and they're over 3. But as soon as they turn 3 they would wear a yarmulka on their ponytails.

TzipG

Mon, Nov 16 2009, 2:47 pm

It is not our minhag to grow our boys' hair long. I cut it as soon as it starts getting girly looking and by the time my boys are 1-1.5 they start wearing a kippah.

With both of my boys, I got quite a few comments about his short hair and kippah when he was 1.5-2. Ppl even told me that it's minhag yerushalayim to grow the hair long and I have to follow that minhag even if it's not our personal minhag. I've learned to ignore such comments.