chicago | Imamother

amother

Mon, Nov 23 2009, 2:37 am

we are planning a move towards the end of the summer and are very much considering the chicago area.
I have been there before and know some of the pros and cons.
Im just curious, which out of the communities in chicago, would fit us the best.

we are pretty newley married and will IY'H be moving with a toddler. we want a "community". not something with a minyan factory where people are coming and going all the time.
we like the slower pace of the midwest, with the conviences of a bigger city.
Really the community part is the biggest thing for us, and finding a job in a Jewish setting is a big thing as well. DH is looking to work in a place like Jewish family services doing counseling. or a similar type setting. I would also like to work in a special needs school or day treatment center with Jewish children. Does not have to be frum.

we are yeshivish. looking for a hemishe warm community, we are not looking to live where we have to "keep up with the Jonses."
we want to live where there are other newley married couples, with children around the same age.
Also we would like people to notice us once in a while Smile

does this sound like any places in chicago? maybe I described somwhere else on the map? we are open to other suggestions as well!!

ClaRivka

Mon, Nov 23 2009, 4:02 am

amother wrote:

op here. I dont know much about south bend, but I think its a bit too small for us. if we were going for a community like that, we would probably end up in Minneapolis.
but we don't want to send our boys away to yeshiva so young and there are not many conviences in a place like that.

what are your hesitations for us in terms of west rogers park and skokie? I have my own ideas of pro's and cons there.
Also we are not a really young couple in terms of age, more like a young family... will have been married about a year and a half or so.

Feel free to PM me.

WRP and Peterson Park, Lincolnwood, Skokie- none of them have communities where all the congregants live near each other and have their own mikvaos or even shabbes shiurim..I suppose the center for orah and chesed and the kollel are all trying to make the entire city and outlying areas into one but that doesnt mean that you will b noticed. Everytime I go to the grocery I see ppl I didnt kno before and I dont go up to them bc who says they havent been here for 15 yrs?

Strudel

Mon, Nov 23 2009, 12:50 pm

He could look at JCFS and KESHET

For what he wants to do he'll need a Masters. Plus the wages for these types of jobs are pretty low, and Chicago isn't cheap . 2 or 3 bed apartment in WRP is @$1200 per month. Most are pretty old, and need refitting. You need to be careful about the building you move into, as the area has gone down hill recently (I live in the area OOT Bubby suggested) and no longer feel safe.

Its hard to say where you would fit. In Chicago frum can be knee skimming skirts, showing most of your hair and going around with bare legs all summer.
There are quite a few different shuls and I'm sure you'll find one. It's not a fancy town, which is good, but can be hard to meet people. If you have kids, you'll make friends with the other mothers from playgroup or classes at the JCC.

Last edited by Strudel on Mon, Nov 23 2009, 3:47 pm; edited 1 time in total

Fox

Mon, Nov 23 2009, 3:01 pm

I agree with OOTBubby, as usual, on the various neighborhoods as well as her recommendation.

I also live in the Pratt/Touhy/Sacramento/California "square," and I don't necessarily think the area has gone downhill in terms of crime, etc. I subscribe to the "EveryBlock" service, so I feel like I have a pretty good handle on how much crime actually occurs. However, I think many of us -- myself included -- behaved pretty naively for many years and were usually able to get away with it.

Let's face it, the area north of Pratt or even North Shore has a very suburban feel to it, and it's easy to forget that you're living in an urban area, with all that entails. You need to lock your doors at all times, set the security alarm when you leave, lock away bicycles and toys in the garage, make sure basement doors and windows are secure . . . things that most people living in cities take for granted.

Interestingly, the features of WRP that cause us to behave with less-than-exemplary vigilance are the features that make it lovely. There are three generously-sized parks within a few blocks of my house, including one enormous park with a pond, etc. A few blocks more will take you to an even more enormous park with a public golf course. Houses all have largish lawns, and even the apartment buildings usually have a nice patch of green outside. Kids play outdoors with minimal supervision, depending on their ages, and often go to the parks in groups, supervised by older kids or teenage girls. There is a JCC with swimming and workout rooms (including separate facilities or hours for men and women) that is so cheap by comparison to other JCCs in the country that I'm almost embarrassed.

While I've never found anyplace else as nice to live as Chicago, I will admit that I've heard criticisms from newcomers that tend to focus on a specific problem: people are not going to roll out the red carpet and clutch you to their bosoms. There are a lot of historical and cultural reasons for this that I won't go into; however, the bottom line is that you have to be willing and prepared to be more outgoing than you might normally be in order to find a chevra.

In addition, people's friends and social circles are not necessarily based on where their husbands daven or their official shul membership. Chicago is a city of shtiebels. While a few shuls have hospitality committees or something similar, the idea of a kehilla based on shul affiliation is not a terribly popular concept hereabouts with a few notable exceptions.

Chicago is an excellent choice if you're looking for an "OOT" community with the Midwestern vibe that still has plenty of amenities for Jewish life such as kosher restaurants, a selection of schools, a variety of grocers, etc. However, as Strudel points out, Chicago is no longer necessarily a cheap alternative.

As for your DH's career options, Chicago is fortunate enough to have a relatively diversified economy, so we don't suffer quite as badly as many other former industrial centers during economic downturns. I would strongly urge him to also consider employment outside of agencies and organizations run under Jewish auspices. While job opportunities do exist in these agencies, they tend to be lower-paid, paperwork-heavy, and are not necessarily easier for someone who is Shomer Shabbos. There are many opportunities in the suburban areas to the near North and West that may provide greater job satisfaction, higher pay, and better career-building opportunity.

Good luck!

Fox

Mon, Nov 23 2009, 3:52 pm

Hey, maybe we should ask for grants from the Federation, the CRC, and all the usual suspects to create "OOTBubby and Fox Tell It Like It Is: A Newcomer's Guide to Chicago" LOL

We could do a question-and-answer format!

Q: What is it they mumbling at me at the pizza shops?
A: "Zat fer here er to go?"

Q: Why are all those chairs piled in the street in the winter?
A: We'll explain after you've found a parking place.

Q: My child's school schedule said orientation was tonight, but when I called the school with a question, they said the schedule had been changed. How was I supposed to know this?
A: If you were supposed to have known, you would have. Better luck next year.

Q: My son told my DH that he wants to grow up to be a policeman, a fireman, or a nursing home administrator. Isn't that a bit odd an ambition for a five-year-old to express?
A: No, lots of little boys want to be policemen. Don't worry about it.

amother

Mon, Nov 23 2009, 4:23 pm

Amother - b/c I don't want to be identified as having lived in Chicago.

I agree that West Rogers Park sounds the most your speed.

Skokie would probrably not be your best bet if you are Yehivish and Peterson Park and Lincolnwood are much more expensive areas (not really any apartments for rent) and you may feel like you have to live up to the Jones' (but only if you want to).

How yeshivish are you? (I know that is a hard question to answer). If you are kollel yeshivish, you may be very comfortable with the kollel chevra, mostly located on and around the 6500 block of Motzart where the kollel owns several apartments. The biggest problem is that that kehilla typically don't use the eruv (the ervu is very political) so its hard to make friends in shul and on the streets/park on Shabbos b/c the women can't go out with babies who don't walk. But if you live on the block and send your kid to the same babysitter and are open and friendly you may fit in well.

Also, a new Kollel recently opened in Peterson Park for young Yeshivish couples. I don't think it's that difficult to be accepted but it sounds like your husband is working and not in Kollel.

If you are less yehivish, the area between prat and touhy like others mentioned may suit you well. Mikor Chaim (located on Touhy and California) is a very nice kehilla for young couples. The typical couple there is what I call "modern Yeshivish". The husbands all work and there are varying levels of hair covering and tznius. But it is a very growth oriented shul. The Rabbeim there are all very Yeshivish and are respected tremendously. Because most of that Kehilla do use the eruv, it is much easier to make friends by going to shul on shabbos and bringing your kid to the park, etc. The women there are trying to become more of a Sisterhood- with monthly gatherings (they just had a really nice one this past Saturday night) and shiurim etc. They make meals for pple who had babies, etc. I think if you join that shul you will have an easy time making friends and becoming accepted to the community (assuming you feel comfortable with that frumness level - research it). Also, it is a growing shul (about 10 years old) with new families constantly joining, so they are good at welcoming newcomers.

I want to respectfully disagree with Clarivka.

The Chicago Community kollel people are mostly centered around a few blocks, they do not live in different neighborhoods. Also, the Kollel doesn't typically take newlyweds but they do take couples only married a year or two. And learning in Lakewood prior is NOT a requirement. However it is a tough kollel to be accepted into b/c they have very high standards for the men's learning level. But even if you are not a kollel member but feel like that is your level of frumkeit, you can still become friends with the kollel couples, by haveing dh daven in the kollel and living nearby.

The Chicago communities definately do have mikvaos and Shabbos shiurim. During the summer months (long shabbos afternoons) there is a seperate shiur in each neighborhood - WRP, PP and lincolnwood, all organized by Reb Eichenstein. The main Mikva is in WRP on Touhy but Skokie has one as well and WRP also has a lubavitch mikvah that Rabbi Fuerst is matir. Peterson Park (and maybe lincolnwood) has a shabbos mikvah.

It is a large community, meaning that there will always be pple you don't know at functions and at the grocery - even if you have lived there forever, but so what? People are very friendly and if you open yourself up it shouldn't be too hard to get accepted.

I have never felt unsafe in Chicago. I live in a NY suburb now and feel much less safe. There has been a slight increase in vandilism but like Fox said, it is just neccisary to take normal precaution. People there tended to be very lax (many did not bother locking their cars, etc. and now you have to).

All in all, I think Chicago is a great place to live. I lived there for a large chunk of my life and I return there often to visit. I hope that someday I will be able to move back.

If you have any specific questions I will try to answer.

Fox

Mon, Nov 23 2009, 5:25 pm

ClaRivka wrote:

lol.

Fox where you live and in that "square" I wouldnt call unsafe. Where I live and where Strudel lives I would call unsafe (shes across California). There have been numerous attempts at kidnapping, burglary, and hate crimes. But I would also say that the yeshivish crowd also goes south to arthur and not just pratt.

I must have misunderstood -- I thought OOTBubby had recommended my "square," so I was responding to that. I don't know Strudel IRL -- or if I do, I don't know that I know her. LOL

But here's the thing: I get Everyblock reports daily that detail crime reports for the 12 blocks around me (which includes where you and Strudel live), and while it's true that there have been attempted kidnappings, home invasions, armed robberies and other high-profile, scary crimes, the actual reports don't appear bear out the idea that there is quantitatively more crime south of Pratt than north of Pratt.

Here's my theory: As you go further toward Devon (that's Dee-VONNE to the uninitiated), the neighborhood seems a lot more, shall we say, multi-cultural and gritty than north of Pratt. Plus, there is a lot of rental housing that means a less stable, invested population. I agree that it makes me uneasy to walk past those little groups of men (Pakastanis? Croatians? I'm not sure and I haven't stopped to ask!) that congregate on the public benches, and there is a significant Muslim presence on the street. And that's not including that guy who walks around in short shorts and cowboy hat no matter the weather -- but can tell you what's wrong with your car by listening to the engine!

But I'm not sure I'd characterize South-of-Pratt as more dangerous; I'd say it's more a case of us North-of-Pratters being unrealistic about our risks. I will admit that I've become much, much more security-conscious over the last year or so. But frankly, that's as it should be. Did I really think that bad guys seeking to do harm sit around saying, "Well, we would go bother Fox and her family, but we'd have to cross Pratt Avenue, so that idea is out!"

Of course, closer to Devon, you have the problem of that crazy woman in the Taurus who double-parks on Richmond and who seems to be picking up food every day. What's up with that?!

ClaRivka

Mon, Nov 23 2009, 6:15 pm

Fox wrote:

ClaRivka wrote:

I must have misunderstood -- I thought OOTBubby had recommended my "square," so I was responding to that. I don't know Strudel IRL -- or if I do, I don't know that I know her. LOL

[b]

1-I believe that guy with the cowboy hat is jewish.

2- LOL, don worry abt her, she's normal!

melbee

Mon, Nov 23 2009, 7:41 pm

Cowboy shorts guy is Jewish. I've seen him around in other outfits. Strange guy...

Regardless, I primarily agree with the amother who lives in WRP. OP, WRP sounds like it would be a good fit for you. I've met a lot of nice people around the area, and as long as your relatively outgoing, setting up a chevra shouldn't be a problem. There are many shuls in the area, and at each one I have been walked up to and talked to if I wasn't recognized (we've gone to each shul at least once in the area). Everyone's been mentioning the kollel, but there are a lot of different shuls in the area that all types of people go to. For instance, DH really enjoys Khal Chassidim, but we are not Chassidish. So I'm sure you and your family would find a place you'd feel comfortable. I have also become aware of many Shabbos (and weekday) shiurim and chavrusa programs for men and women. And there is another mikva aside from the one on Touhy by appointment only on Devon that is very nice (if I have to go over Shabbos I prefer that one, since it's closer and the appointment lets me know there's for sure someone there when I go, but they're available any day).

As Fox mentioned, there are a lot of great parks in the area, and WRP really does have the "in the city but doesn't FEEL like city" atmosphere you were talking about. I don't have any experience in Peterson Park or Lincolnwood, but I'd imagine that's probably the same. I also know personally two people that work with JCFS, and I used to work in the Jewish school system. People are right to warn you the pay is not great, and there is very little gratitude, but if your heart is in it they can be great jobs.

Feel free to PM me if you have any other questions.

yihyetov

Mon, Nov 23 2009, 9:01 pm

So I grew up in Chicago, but my husband is from NY..and to make a long story short I was his first good excuse to get out of there. Im only married for two and half yrs, and my husband knows soo many people here...weel be walking on the street and everyone will be saying hello and good shabbos to him, and im like who was that? who was that? lol its so funny- every time we get invited out on shbbos its from "his connections." My husband is friendly but hes no macher! And He is enjoying Chicago very much!! The only place better would be Israel! My husband also fell in live with Khal Chasidim..While you are right that the rav is Chasidish..the vast majority of the people that go there are not. In fact I would say that the shul is very chulent pat-ish...And yes the best area iss proboly in between pratt and touhy..but I live east of california...and you know its quit colorfull on this side of california lol...but my rent is L-O-W...and I happened to be lucky and I have a jewish land loard...so the building is in pretty good shape.... feel free to im me with any questions! Very Happy

Fox

Mon, Nov 23 2009, 9:31 pm

melbee wrote:

Cowboy shorts guy is Jewish. I've seen him around in other outfits. Strange guy...

Maybe he's an automotive malach! I was parked on Richmond at the corner of Devon one time, and I started my car. He was walking at least 30-40 feet away in the opposite direction, but he turned suddenly when I started my car. He walked over, motioned for me to lower my window, and told me that I was probably losing oil and needed to add some. I thanked him, and he walked off.

I drove about two blocks before my oil light came on.

I've heard similar stories from a number of people. One of my friends took her car into the shop at his suggestion; she was a little embarrassed when they asked her why. I mean, who wants to say, "I'm not sure, but the cowboy shorts guy said to bring it in."? She was subsequently told that her gasket had cracked; if she'd waited another day, the car wouldn't have been worth fixing. Amazing, no?

Fox

Mon, Nov 23 2009, 9:54 pm

yihyetov wrote:

While you are right that the rav is Chasidish..the vast majority of the people that go there are not.

Yeah, we seem to have this thing in Chicago: we have an extremely small non-Chabad Chassidishe community, as ClaRivka will no doubt attest. But the fastest growing shul is Chassidishe and lots of Yeshivishe people, including most of the Telzer families, send their kids to the Veitzener Cheder, run by the brother of the Bobover Rebbe (15th Avenue). Many of the Tatties have to secretly review the weekly parsha sheet to make sure they understand the Yiddish! We obviously have some significant identity crises going on! LOL

Strudel wrote:

I'm on the wrong side of the tracks (or at least California!)

You know, there's this huge history dating back to the development of WRP concerning California as a dividing line. In fact, there's a novel called, Crossing California, set in WRP in the 1970s. The period in which the story is set pre-dates the significant development of the frum community, but I found it fascinating to see how social structures that were in place 30-50 years ago still influence how we relate to the neighborhood.

The author used California Avenue as a metaphor for upward mobility (living west of California was fancier than living east); changes in religious observance (people east of California seemed to be falling away from observance while people to the west were more involved); and, naturally, the transformation of the characters themselves as they moved through adolescence.

I've personally never understood why Jews didn't buy more homes in the block or two east of California, especially from Pratt to, say, Lunt. A lot of the houses are much nicer than many of those in the area north of Touhy.

Of course, for real history buffs, the best question is why everyone was in such a hurry to leave the West Side, and furthermore, why they were so keen to move from Albany Park to WRP and PP. The neighborhood changes that are usually cited came after the Jews left, not before. The late Rebbetzin Leff offered the best explanation I ever heard: "Ants in their pants. There was no real reason to leave, but they just had ants in their pants!"