yaakov and the brachos

amother

Tue, Nov 24 2009, 10:21 am

this is something that has ALWAYS bothered me. I tried to ask DH but honestly, he got so upset taht I was asking I just took the answer he gave me and said OK thanks because I dont want to argue with him and he hates when I ask these types of "questions" on tzadikim.

I think my question is a typical one and quite obvious-
why is it ok that Yaakov LIED to his father? yes of course, the goal was good (from yaakovs perspective) to ultimately get the bracha, but if he deserved it, why didnt hashem make him get it in a natural fair way? meaning

either Yitzchok DECIDES even though Esav is my bechor, Esav deserves X and Yaakov Y,

Or let hashem put those words in Yitzchoks mouth (Hashem controls everything we do or say in this world even with bechira chofshis)

Or...let Yaakov be the one born first so "switching" around never needed to be done?

how does it has to be this way because Yaakov is the tzadik and esav is the rasha, justfy lying and deceiving?

please someone give me an answer!!!!!!!
thanks
it has bothered me for years but I am too embarassed to ask

imasinger

Tue, Nov 24 2009, 11:37 am

The interpretation of the punctuation never quite solved the issue for me, since Yitzchak's behavior afterward makes it clear that he either thought he was giving the bracha to Eisav, or he was acting as if it were so.

For that matter, one could question the behavior of Yitzchak as well. When I was a kid, I thought it was ridiculous that he would be fooled for even a second by goat skin, which feels nothing like hairy human skin, especially when he recognized Yaakov's voice, too. And why, when Eisav comes in, does he make it very clear that this whole thing was his brother's fault, not exactly likely to lead to sibling peace?

I'm grateful that we are given opportunity to see the ways that the tzaddikim grew in their lives, because it gives me hope that I can grow in mine, as well. I hope the side of tradition that speaks to their being human doesn't get lost.

amother

Tue, Nov 24 2009, 1:11 pm

imasinger wrote:

OP here. Of course I know its "all where you put the comma."

But my problem lies more with Yaakovs intent.

and with the fact that we know afterwards that Yitzchok was distraught and the brocha in his mind, was meant for HIS bechor, Eisav.

I know what Rashi says too Louche (re the beans). Did Yitzchok not know that? did he not realize what is simple nature? Even so, he intended to bless Eisav with X and Yaakov with Y, why is it ok that Yaakov "fooled' him into getting what he wanted to give to Eisav. whether or not Eisav is a rasha.

imasinger wrote:

I'm grateful that we are given opportunity to see the ways that the tzaddikim grew in their lives, because it gives me hope that I can grow in mine, as well. I hope the side of tradition that speaks to their being human doesn't get lost.

this is the only ans. that has ever at all "placated' me - in other words, we all make mistakes and do things that are not perfect, only Hashem is perfect. but is this truly the lesson from this incident?

grin

Tue, Nov 24 2009, 1:23 pm

I know of 2 parts of the answer, and I'm sure there's more.

first off, all the tzadikim's greatest nisyonos was in overcoming their natural midos. Although these modos were in and of themselves wonderful, still the highest madreiga is serving H' against one's natural tendencies. We see this in the Akeida, wihch went against the grain of Avraham Avinu's natural lovingkindness and in many incidents of Yakov's life, including this episode as well as with Lavan, etc. which all went against his natural midas of emes and temimus.

also, we see the great lengths that were taken in order to avoid that H' not speak (as it were) LH against Eisav to Yitzchak, instead having the situation remedied in other, even doubtful, means.

someoneoutthere

Tue, Nov 24 2009, 1:42 pm

This was not yaakov's doing on his own advice. This was engineered by Rivkah. Sometimes, for things of a higher, greater nature to come about there needs to be something like a step backwards. Yaakov was an "ish tam", as it says Titen emes lyaakov. He was of a purely emes'dik and spiritual nature. What he had to do here was stepping out of character, not building it.

One of the explanations brought is that Eisav was spiritually on a higher level than Yaakov. These brachos were so great that consciously, Yitzchak would not have been able to give them to Yaakov, he had to do it unwittingly.

Yaakov, for his part, needed to be operating on a level above his own conscious limitations. A level of self-sacrifice. And that is why he needed to risk his father's wrath...

here's some more:

Quote:

Rebecca took…Esau's clothes…and put them on…Jacob: In addition to the explanations given above101 as to why Jacob had to receive the blessings dressed as Esau, there is also a homiletic interpretation: Rebecca wanted to ensure that Isaac's blessings would rest upon her descendants, the Jewish people, no matter to what degree they would remain openly loyal to the teachings and practices of the Torah. By having Jacob receive Isaac's blessings dressed as Esau, Rebecca ensured that the blessings would rest even on those Jews who would drift away from their Jewish roots and would no longer be recognizable as Jacob's children. We learn from Rebecca that even those Jews disguised as "Esau" are deserving of blessing since, beneath their external garb, they too are truly "Jacob."102
From a letter of the Rebbe, cited in Biurei HaChumash, Bereishit, vol. 1, p. 350.

Quote:

The blessings Isaac bestowed upon Jacob were for material prosperity. The fact that he obtained them with guile is meant to offer us instruction as to how we should engage in our own material pursuits. When eating or conducting business, for example, we may appear to be merely tending to our physical needs, similar to the materialistic Esau. But behind this façade, we should really be thinking like Jacob: our true intention should be a spiritual one—to eat in order to have the strength to study the Torah and observe the commandments, to earn a livelihood in order to have the financial means with which to fulfill the commandments, and so on. This is the sort of "duplicity" that we are to employ in our interactions with the material world.132
Likutei Sichot, vol. 3, p. 796.

http://www.chabad.org/parshah/.....70370

sarahd

Tue, Nov 24 2009, 1:55 pm

amother wrote:

OP here. Of course I know its "all where you put the comma."

But my problem lies more with Yaakovs intent.

Actually, this was a huge nisayon for Yaakov, whose primary midda was emes. He certainly didn't want to put himself in this situation, but Rivka commanded him to do so, so he did everything he could do to avoid lying.

Quote:

and with the fact that we know afterwards that Yitzchok was distraught and the brocha in his mind, was meant for HIS bechor, Eisav.

Where do you get the idea from that Yitzchok was distraught over giving the brochos to Yaakov? He was distraught that he nearly gave the brochos to the wrong person - Esav - who, he suddenly realized, was a rasha and not the bechor anyhow.

Quote:

I know what Rashi says too Louche (re the beans). Did Yitzchok not know that? did he not realize what is simple nature? Even so, he intended to bless Eisav with X and Yaakov with Y, why is it ok that Yaakov "fooled' him into getting what he wanted to give to Eisav. whether or not Eisav is a rasha.

If you really want to read an explanation of the story that might answer your questions, you should look into the Ohr Gedalyahu, end of Parshas Toldos, where he explains why the whole thing had to come about through deception.

PinkFridge

Tue, Nov 24 2009, 3:20 pm

someoneoutthere wrote:

Do you mean that Eisav was born with greater spiritual capacity than Yaakov? Because by this point he had certainly misused and abused those capacities, and Yaakov had stretched himself immeasurably in the other direction.

someoneoutthere

Tue, Nov 24 2009, 4:28 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

someoneoutthere wrote:

I mean that underneath all the shmutz Eisav had a greater spiritual source and potential. The greater the kedusha, the greater the ability for the opposite to express itself. That's what Yitzchak saw in Eisav all this time in the first place. That he had this tremendous potential and he looked to cultivate that. Rivkah recognized that even the brachos wouldnt have helped Eisav.

AlwaysGrateful

Tue, Nov 24 2009, 4:40 pm

grin wrote:

first off, all the tzadikim's greatest nisyonos was in overcoming their natural midos. Although these modos were in and of themselves wonderful, still the highest madreiga is serving H' against one's natural tendencies. We see this in the Akeida, wihch went against the grain of Avraham Avinu's natural lovingkindness and in many incidents of Yakov's life, including this episode as well as with Lavan, etc. which all went against his natural midas of emes and temimus.

I'd like to build on this.

OP - Do you have any problems with the fact that Avraham almost KILLED his son by the akeidah? Shfichas damim. Sounds pretty bad, doesn't it? Or that Yitzchak almost let himself be killed, essentially committing suicide?

solo

Tue, Nov 24 2009, 7:14 pm

amother wrote:

But my problem lies more with Yaakovs intent.

there are several explanations for yakovs seeming deceitfulness
1. as already mentioned was the mater of his punctuation
2. is the explanation given by rashi bout who was conceived first
3. that yakov actually bought the bechorah from esav.
im sure there r many others. they dont exactly resolve ur issues with yakovs intent. for that the best explanation I have is that he was following the command of his mother who had ruach hakodesh

amother wrote:

and with the fact that we know afterwards that Yitzchok was distraught and the brocha in his mind, was meant for HIS bechor, Eisav.

according to rashi (kaf zayin, lamed vav) yitzchak trembled cuz he thought he sinned by giving yakov the berachos first, but then realized that the berachos were meant for yakov and repeated the phrase, "gam baruch yehiyeh" to indicate that after he was clear on what ocured he felt yakov deserved the berachos.

amother

Tue, Nov 24 2009, 11:30 pm

Hi e/o this is the OP here.

I didn read all the answers ppl gave yet, I am so sorry! I just checked immother.com and saw I had so many responses! thanks for answering me and not calling me an apikores (I think - but I didnt read thru e/t yet)

I am going to "bookmark" this and IY"Hread this and see if I have any questions tomorrow (I probably will!), I am just too tired to keep my eyes open.

But I didnt want anyone to think I was either a troll (because someone said recently a "typical" troll posts something and then just leaves) or just trying to be annoying by posting something inflammatory. Im not, I am just busy!! thanks e/o.