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Is this equivalent to Baptism?



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tziganka




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Apr 08 2009, 3:56 am
I work in a psychiatric hospital on the geriatric side. My job is to mostly speak with the patients and make sure they have everything they need to not want to kill themselves. Today a bi-polar, senile, Italian woman whom I’m fairly friendly with ran over to me holding a newspaper screaming “There was an earthquake in Italy, people died”! She was crying and panicking and I needed to calm her down. So I sat her down and tried to talk to her. All of a sudden, she grabs my hand and screams “we must pray” and before I could do anything she was clinging my hand reciting prayers... (gasp)... to Yashka… shock
All this on eruv Pesach no less! I don’t know what to do now, I feel really dirty, violated to be exact, was my neshama damaged? Is there a tikun that I’m supposed to do now?
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ora_43




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Apr 08 2009, 4:52 am
As far as I know, it's her problem (or in this case not, because she's mentally ill). There's no effect on you; it's like having any Christian pray near you, it doesn't make the area a church or make it as if you were involved in Christian prayer or anything like that.

I know it feels weird. I was in a similar situation once or twice (I didn't work with the mentally ill, but I was surrounded by them anyway -- the benefits of my former neighborhood). There's not much you can do (or are expected to do) but stay quiet and calm and gently remove your hands as soon as possible.
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Marion




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Apr 08 2009, 5:23 am
This is so not an issue, or shouldn't be. Baptism requires water...even infant (non-immersion) baptism requires water. You're not even close.

And why is it more relevant because it's erev Pesach? Happens this year it's Easter weekend too. So what? Your goal was to comfort her; she found comfort in your presence and her prayer. So you accomplished your goal. You should be pleased instead of distraught.
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freidasima




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Apr 08 2009, 5:44 am
No violation of your neshomo, only a mitzva that you did giving that poor sick woman solace.
Remember that there is one G-d, one Ribono shel olam for us all. The fact that she is misguided and speaks to him through someone who she considers an intermediary has nothing to do with you. And above all, the Yoshkeleh was a Yid, it would have been worse for me had it been through Muhammad...
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mimivan




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Apr 08 2009, 6:27 am
freidasima wrote:
No violation of your neshomo, only a mitzva that you did giving that poor sick woman solace.
Remember that there is one G-d, one Ribono shel olam for us all. The fact that she is misguided and speaks to him through someone who she considers an intermediary has nothing to do with you. And above all, the Yoshkeleh was a Yid, it would have been worse for me had it been through Muhammad...


actually, according to the Rambam, Xtianity is much worse a religion than Islam because it involves idol worship...the Muslims don't worship Mohammed.

However, OP, this is not even close to a baptism...as Marion said, no water...You didn't realize who she was praying to until it was too late.
Still, it wouldn't hurt to take on something extra...not that it was your fault..but something small to perhaps assuage that feeling of having been "tainted." (which it doesn't seem you were)

Matzah is the food of faith and of healing, so it should have a cleansing effect on your neshama...if you feel even a bit uneasy...
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freidasima




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Apr 09 2009, 3:09 pm
Mimi there are many dissenting views who say that the Rambam claimed as he did because he lived in Moslem lands while chacomim living in Xtian lands wrote just the opposite, that Islam was worse (in terms of conversion necessity for saving lives, shmad, etc.). So go know.

As for "tainted", why is anyone feeding into a feeling which has totally no basis? Why should the OP have to take on anything at all - she is NOT TAINTED. You are NOT TAINTED if you are forced for some reason to walk into a church or if you stand next to an Xtian or anything else. We do not live in a ghetto, we were not created to do so. Do you feel tainted if your bus stop is next to a treif butcher who opens the door and you smell the roasting meat (chazer?), do you feel tainted if you look at a beautiful children's dress in a store and find out ex post facto that you were admiring a communion dress??!!

Save these feelings for situations which unfortunately warrant them. This does not. There is no halachic basis for it and one's emotions should be geared to that, not to things which are neurotic (psychiatric hospitals and all that).
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HindaRochel




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Apr 09 2009, 4:10 pm
She prayed, that is that. So what if she were near you and holding your hand, you aren't praying? And there are those who say that anytime someone prays it is okay to answer AMEN even if it isn't to Hashem directly, as in this case, because the one who hears the prayers is Hashem!
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mimivan




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Apr 09 2009, 6:32 pm
freidasima wrote:
Mimi there are many dissenting views who say that the Rambam claimed as he did because he lived in Moslem lands while chacomim living in Xtian lands wrote just the opposite, that Islam was worse (in terms of conversion necessity for saving lives, shmad, etc.). So go know.

As for "tainted", why is anyone feeding into a feeling which has totally no basis? Why should the OP have to take on anything at all - she is NOT TAINTED. You are NOT TAINTED if you are forced for some reason to walk into a church or if you stand next to an Xtian or anything else. We do not live in a ghetto, we were not created to do so. Do you feel tainted if your bus stop is next to a treif butcher who opens the door and you smell the roasting meat (chazer?), do you feel tainted if you look at a beautiful children's dress in a store and find out ex post facto that you were admiring a communion dress??!!

Save these feelings for situations which unfortunately warrant them. This does not. There is no halachic basis for it and one's emotions should be geared to that, not to things which are neurotic (psychiatric hospitals and all that).


Wow...I never really meant that she was "tainted" but I was just validating her having felt a bit icky about it or whatever...(I don't remember what word she actually used)..

sure it wasn't her fault...and it probably had no effect on her soul...but she felt some emotional discomfort and I could totally understand that.
And why not add in something if one feels like it??
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