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Baby at shiva



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yhb




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, May 14 2009, 8:04 am
I have to go to a shiva this week, I was just wondering if its ok to bring my ten month old to a or is it better to leave him with a babysitter? Im not sure if its appropriate or not.
thanks
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shalhevet




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, May 14 2009, 8:14 am
Personally, I don't think it's appropriate at all.
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Mama Bear




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, May 14 2009, 8:17 am
depends how close family is, and/or how long you plan to stay. Ive taken my baby along if it was a very short visit and someone I knew very well and wouldnt mind. He actually became a conversation piece and provided some distraction to the avelim, which was good.
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ss321




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, May 14 2009, 8:22 am
Mama Bear wrote:
depends how close family is, and/or how long you plan to stay. Ive taken my baby along if it was a very short visit and someone I knew very well and wouldnt mind. He actually became a conversation piece and provided some distraction to the avelim, which was good.


yup, me too. A year ago, I wouldve said, inappropriate, under any and all circumstances. But if you are close with the person sitting shiva, sometimes I agree with MB its a good distraction and might make them smile.

Heres how I decide: If-the reason I want to bring my baby is because its nighttime and my babysitter has left for the day and my DH is at work and I want to go now and dont want to go searching for a babysitter - then the answer is ABSOLUTELY INAPPROPRIATE. If - the reason I want to bring my baby is because its a person who I know loves my kids, and would be thrilled to see his new tooth/hear him say what he thinks are words/ watch him clap his hands, etc, and I know it would brighten their otherwise sad day for just a few minutes, then yes, I would bring him. but ONLY under those circumstances. I have done it twice.
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cassandra




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, May 14 2009, 8:24 am
I agree with Mamabear that it depends how close you are to the person. When my mother was sitting shiva she told me that the thing that gave her the most strength that week was having my kids running around the house. But other than immediate family or a best friend that you know would be okay with it I don't think it's appropriate. Not that everyone would mind, but you should err on the side of not doing it.
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Raisin




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, May 14 2009, 8:38 am
I had my baby with me when my dh was sitting shiva, but I would not take a baby to a shiva house otherwise.
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Marion




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, May 14 2009, 8:57 am
Rabbi Lamm in his book (the purple one; The Jewish Way in Death and Mourning) says it's inappropriate, and that mourners should not handle very young children davka because it brings simcha, and simcha and mourning do not go together. Just like a mourner doesn't learn Torah (except inyanei d'yoma).

Of course, I read this AFTER I took my kids to see their father every day for a week.

Nonetheless, IMO (and that of my DH), it was more important for our 2 very young children to know that Abba hadn't just disappeared in the middle of the night and that everything was "OK". (I also think it gave DH chizzuk and reminded him of his own "legacy".)
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Raisin




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, May 14 2009, 8:58 am
Marion wrote:
Rabbi Lamm in his book (the purple one; The Jewish Way in Death and Mourning) says it's inappropriate, and that mourners should not handle very young children davka because it brings simcha, and simcha and mourning do not go together. Just like a mourner doesn't learn Torah (except inyanei d'yoma).

Of course, I read this AFTER I took my kids to see their father every day for a week.

Nonetheless, IMO (and that of my DH), it was more important for our 2 very young children to know that Abba hadn't just disappeared in the middle of the night and that everything was "OK". (I also think it gave DH chizzuk and reminded him of his own "legacy".)


I am quite sure rabbi lamm did not mean that a parent should not see their own children.
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drumjj




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, May 14 2009, 9:03 am
I must say I have to agree. when my mother was sitting shiva I went to stay with her the whole week without my kids but she actually asked me if the kids could come one day to visit her so they came. I would only take a very very young baby if it was a family member otherwise I wouldnt go
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ss321




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, May 14 2009, 9:09 am
Marion wrote:
Rabbi Lamm in his book (the purple one; The Jewish Way in Death and Mourning) says it's inappropriate, and that mourners should not handle very young children davka because it brings simcha, and simcha and mourning do not go together. Just like a mourner doesn't learn Torah (except inyanei d'yoma).

that is interesting. OOPS I guess. I have gone to shiva houses where the mourners are literally sitting around laughing, telling nice stories, trying not to just think about how tragic the death was, but talking and talking about the person and their legacy! The 2x I have brought a baby-my rationale was just that, it will provide them with 2-3 minutes of smiling. not chas veshalom to bring kalos rosh into the house or anything like that! now I want to ask my DH, I feel a little bad.
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drumjj




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, May 14 2009, 9:10 am
ss I think u have to take ever situation and think about it like that I dont think u can generalize
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dee's mommy




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, May 14 2009, 10:10 am
I've never read the Rabbi Lamm book, but there was one occasion in which I did bring my baby. She was very quiet, and I kept her in the carrier (that is I wore her). Had she been noisy, I would have taken her out.

Although, usually I have missed out doing shiva visits because it would normally be at night, and I want the baby to stay sleeping, instead of disrupting her and others around her. My husband went instead.
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shalhevet




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, May 14 2009, 10:36 am
Mama Bear wrote:
depends how close family is, and/or how long you plan to stay. Ive taken my baby along if it was a very short visit and someone I knew very well and wouldnt mind. He actually became a conversation piece and provided some distraction to the avelim, which was good.


Which is exactly why it's inappropriate.

I've also been to shivas when the aveilim were smiling and laughing, but that's their decision/ reaction. Obviously it's forbidden by halacha and I'm not going to contribute to it. I can't judge how people react, that's up to them, their personality, and the circumstances of the shiva, but an outsider shouldn't be bringing small children.

Someone elderly I know told me "You know, the shiva (for his sister) was so nice. I got to see so many people I hadn't seen for years." He had a good relationship with his sister, AFAIK, and I don't think he really registered what he was saying. He didn't quite mean it the way it came out, but at some shivas people can forget what they're doing there.

Marion and Raisin, I'm sure that a person seeing their own children is something completely different, and the children certainly need it.
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mommalah




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, May 14 2009, 11:13 am
Having gotten up from shiva recently for my sister I thought it was fine when people close to the family brought their kids. Now if the people who just sat and stared and had nothing to say(and were not too close to the family) had brought little kids, that would have been fine too as it would have broken some very long, uncomfortable silences. I agree with the poster above somewhere who said kids can be a good distraction.
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mommalah




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, May 14 2009, 11:17 am
shalhevet wrote:
Mama Bear wrote:
depends how close family is, and/or how long you plan to stay. Ive taken my baby along if it was a very short visit and someone I knew very well and wouldnt mind. He actually became a conversation piece and provided some distraction to the avelim, which was good.


Which is exactly why it's inappropriate.

I've also been to shivas when the aveilim were smiling and laughing, but that's their decision/ reaction. Obviously it's forbidden by halacha and I'm not going to contribute to it. I can't judge how people react, that's up to them, their personality, and the circumstances of the shiva, but an outsider shouldn't be bringing small children.

Laughing and joking is sometimes helpful in dealing with death. Oftentimes at the shiva for my sister we were telling nice and funny stories about her. We may have laughed on occassion during the day but going to sleep at night all I could do was cry. People deal with these things in their own way. Also, the Rambam talks about how the first 3 days are for crying and excessive mourning is inappropriate.

Someone elderly I know told me "You know, the shiva (for his sister) was so nice. I got to see so many people I hadn't seen for years." He had a good relationship with his sister, AFAIK, and I don't think he really registered what he was saying. He didn't quite mean it the way it came out, but at some shivas people can forget what they're doing there.

Marion and Raisin, I'm sure that a person seeing their own children is something completely different, and the children certainly need it.
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freidasima




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, May 14 2009, 11:45 am
As someone who has sat shiva for a parent and had small children at the time (who came over every day to see me and their grandmother) my take it that it depends on the person sitting, the person coming and the age of the baby.

I wouldn't bring a toddler. I would however not think twice about bringing a tiny nursing baby. Note, tiny. I had friends who came with babies of one month, two months, three months, four months, five months but not much more than that. By the time the babies were on solids they could leave them at six months for a while, like two hours, and make the shiva visit. But when they had really recently given birth, I had friends who came with their baby from another city and it was so wonderful that they could come at all...and while it did make me happy that I could see a new generation of Jews growing up, it wasn't a smile of "fun" but more of continuity of the Jewish people which is something which I think that my father would have wanted very much. Particularly children of children of friends who had been with him in concentration camp...that was true continuity to see that at his shiva.
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