Asking Shailos | Imamother

Tzippora

Mon, Jul 13 2009, 10:21 pm

GR wrote:

Tzippora wrote:

GR wrote:

So let's see chapter and verse please. "Halacha requires us to follow majority Western medical opinion."

Very very arguably: Unishmartem me'od linafshosechem.

That can mean anything anybody wants it to mean.

I find the idea of asking a Rav his opinion of your doctor's opinion almost laughable. Do you go to your Rav about your plumber's suggestions? financial adviser's? computer expert's? cleaning lady's? Why would anyone go to their Rav about something their doctor has said, unless it's something we know is clearly a halachic issue?

LOL I'm the last one to advocate running to a rav about everything, but there are plenty of people who do it, hence this thread. However, I am pretty sure that any of my rabbonim would interpret that pasuk to imply living based on the latest, best (and thoroughly tested and researched) medical advice. And so, yes, that would mostly translate to Western medical opinion these days.

Tzippora

Mon, Jul 13 2009, 10:37 pm

GR wrote:

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latest, best (and thoroughly tested and researched) medical advice. And so, yes, that would mostly translate to Western medical opinion these days.

I hate rehashing the same issue over and over, but if only that were true, I'd be running there. Or maybe that's why I see no point in asking a Rav medical issues. My Rav is fantastic and very special but he probably knows as much about these things as he knows about toilets, the stock market, computers, and which cleaning solution to use on the floors.

Running to a Rav at this level, I find a bit shocking. As I asked the OP: did your parents ask the Rav before they vaccinated you? I assume not. Then why would I ask the Rav about deciding to not vaccinate?

Given that a family's rav might hold that u'nishmartem meod would = standard Western medicine, then they might ask if that would include vaccination or not.

As for me, I think not vaccinating is quite possibly a violation of u'nishmartem meod. But that's why if I have a medical question, I ask my father in law (a doctor). If I have a halachic/medical question, I call my dad (a rav) who calls his buddy (a doctor). No unlicensed medical advice is taken over here.

Tzippora

Mon, Jul 13 2009, 10:56 pm

GR, I agree with you in the sense that it can mean whatever you want it to mean - or more accurately, that the meaning of this verse has evolved from "Thou shalt follow the Rambam's diet for thy health" to "Thou shalt vaccinate your kids and manage thy diabetes with blood tests and insulin".

Of course, I also think that if I had ever said that someone's rav had issued an opinion that I believed was non-halachic and not binding, I would have been shouted down. So kudos for saying it, and good luck at not getting shouted down.

The question then becomes a parent's liability if they do NOT follow the "accepted" medical path. I.e I want the Christian Scientists and Jehovah's witnesses prosecuted for letting their kids die for want of blood transplants. I feel the same way toward a frum mother whose child dies of measles because they didn't vaccinate. And I believe that yes, that is a violation of u'nishmartem meod.

But who interprets that mitzvah for you? Do you do it on your own? Cool! Then how do you define it?

gryp

Mon, Jul 13 2009, 11:28 pm

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Let's not stick "vaccines" and "diabetes" in the same sentence, please. This isn't a thread for getting into all that, but I just wanted to make it clear that, for me, it isn't the same at all.
(Unless you want to talk about prevention. My father has a very good doctor with many years of experience who knows that not everything in Western medicine is Toras Emes. The doctor warned my father that he is at very high risk of diabetes, and he must cut back on sugar majorly and start exercising. He did, and is no longer a candidate for this disease, thank G-d. He had to change a lot of his diet and can't eat his favorite foods that he's been eating for the past 50+ years, but he did it. So this is where prevention comes into play, and it isn't all about insulin injections.

I know you are probably thinking that the vaccines themselves are the prevention, but there are other ways to prevent diseases, and that's more what I mean.)

But yes, the basic point is what we agree on.

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Of course, I also think that if I had ever said that someone's rav had issued an opinion that I believed was non-halachic and not binding, I would have been shouted down. So kudos for saying it, and good luck at not getting shouted down.

LOL. I think I said that about your Rav, did I? I'm sorry for it and I didn't mean it disrespectfully. As I said, I respect my own Rav to no end, but I still wouldn't ask him about vaccines!

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The question then becomes a parent's liability if they do NOT follow the "accepted" medical path. I.e I want the Christian Scientists and Jehovah's witnesses prosecuted for letting their kids die for want of blood transplants. I feel the same way toward a frum mother whose child dies of measles because they didn't vaccinate. And I believe that yes, that is a violation of u'nishmartem meod.

This is such a complicated matter, it hurts my head to do the back-and-forth.

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But who interprets that mitzvah for you? Do you do it on your own? Cool! Then how do you define it?

No, of course I don't do it on my own. I research as much as I need to to make an informed decision and trust my own judgment as to what's best for my kids/family.

Maybe if I'd call my Rav before getting a cast for a broken leg, chas veshalom, or before getting cavities filled (ch"v for that too), I'd consider calling him about shots too.

Tzippora

Tue, Jul 14 2009, 7:53 am

GR wrote:

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LOL. I think I said that about your Rav, did I? I'm sorry for it and I didn't mean it disrespectfully. As I said, I respect my own Rav to no end, but I still wouldn't ask him about vaccines!

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This is such a complicated matter, it hurts my head to do the back-and-forth.

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But who interprets that mitzvah for you? Do you do it on your own? Cool! Then how do you define it?

LOL I intentionally put diabetes and vaccines in the same sentence. But fine, we wont argue about this now Smile

My family has a genetic predisposition toward obesity and Type II diabetes, so I definitely know that controlling your food intake and living healthy is a great way to prevent it! That's why I started working out regularly and will keep doing so. Went from a size 10-12 to a size 4-6 (and I'm only 5 feet tall, so a 10 was unhealthy for me).

I don't think its disrespectful at all, and my rabbonim would agree with you that it's a non-halachic statement. However, every time I've taken that tack on the board, I've gotten some very interesting responses.

I do have to say that this "research and decide on your own" hashkafa is quite radical. When I argue that about BC everyone gets all irritated. Smile

My question is though, is there a situation where you would call a rav? I can think of one where people might: end of life treatment of cancer where the chemo might not prolong life, but only make it more miserable. Even I might ask someone I thought wiser than myself for advice on that one, but certainly I might even view it as a halachic issue.

gryp

Tue, Jul 14 2009, 9:38 am

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I don't think its disrespectful at all, and my rabbonim would agree with you that it's a non-halachic statement. However, every time I've taken that tack on the board, I've gotten some very interesting responses.

Well, it depends what it is. There are some things that are clearly halacha, and some things if I'd call the Rav about, he'd say: WHY are you asking me? Call your doctor! Or plumber, or computer whiz, or stockbroker.

I don't have a problem with going to the Rav for advice on a certain matter, but to say point blank that normal every day decisions should be run by a Rav is just too farfetched.

This concept never existed btw. It started with Chassidim going to their Rebbe (a non-halachic authority although a Rebbe knows halacha quite well), and crept in to the rest of the world but with their Rav.

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I do have to say that this "research and decide on your own" hashkafa is quite radical. When I argue that about BC everyone gets all irritated. Smile My question is though, is there a situation where you would call a rav? I can think of one where people might: end of life treatment of cancer where the chemo might not prolong life, but only make it more miserable. Even I might ask someone I thought wiser than myself for advice on that one, but certainly I might even view it as a halachic issue.

Yes, clearcut halachic issues. Or even if I'm not sure if it's a halachic issue, I'm lucky that I can always ask my father, who certainly knows whether or not it is. He doesn't like paskening certain issues and will sometimes tell me that I should ask my regular Rav, or if it's not a halachic matter at all and I'm just fine doing what I'm doing.

This is something that I really like about what's done in my circles, is that every boy learns for smicha after finishing yeshiva and before marriage. It's really neat that before starting their own home, the bochur has a nice background in halacha, and won't be running to the Rav about non-issues.