Speaking a language in front of others who cannot understand

BinahYeteirah

Sun, Jul 19 2009, 10:20 pm

Is it rude to speak a language in front of others who cannot understand it when there is a common language?

Obviously, if a group of people has no common language between all of them, then multiple languages must be spoken if the group wishes communicate together. If there is a common language, however, does etiquette demand that the common language be spoken?

For example, would it be rude for a number of people to speak Spanish in the company of a person who could only speak English, while all the Spanish-speakers could speak English fluently? Does it matter what the local language is?

nylon

Sun, Jul 19 2009, 10:31 pm

It's not always rude, but it can be done very rudely, as a way to exclude others from the conversation or to talk behind their backs. Generally speaking, you should use the language that the most people understand, IMO. So if everyone speaks English, but not all speak Spanish, using Spanish will (at the least) be perceived as a means of excluding the non-Spanish speakers.

It can also backfire. One day, my father was in the supermarket. Two of the cashiers were gossiping in Spanish. Unfortunately for them, my father went to school in the South Bronx and speaks fluent Spanish (he kept it up after he left). He said, in Spanish, "you shouldn't talk about the customers like that". He said you couldn't believe the shock on their faces. So, don't speak in another language, assuming you won't be understood.

ValleyMom

Sun, Jul 19 2009, 10:47 pm

Okay, NOW I have to be brusque.
THIS IS AMERICA!

Speak our language...

When I go to Israel I make a concerted effort to speak Hebrew.

Okay, sometimes I resort to lowering my voice to a deep, throaty, rumble and mutter some Hebrew sounding words with an "authentic" accent so the natives "think" my Hebrew is impeccable.

Or at the very least I use multi syllabic words so the few Israeli's that do speak English suddenly cannot comprehend the superfluous jargon emanating from my oral cavity.

The most obnoxious thing is when I am at a simchah and people at the table start yammering away in French or Farsi... It makes me want to stand on my chair whip out a pocket size American Flag and start bellowing America The Beautiful.

Needless to say I did NOT enjoy my trip to Paris... too many people speaking French!!!
:-)

Imaonwheels

Sun, Jul 19 2009, 11:38 pm

I think it depends. I can remember Israelis being upset when I would talk to my best friend in English when we weren't even talking to them. Of course we both speak fluent Ivrit but there was no reason to have to when we were talking to each other in the playground. If an Israeli joined our conversation we would always switch to Ivrit.

Once in the regular shul shiur in Rechovot we noticed only Anglo women arrived and the rav is from Canada. Someone asked that he speak in English. In the middle of the shiur we heard footsteps and he changed to Ivrit in mid sentance. When the person walked in another Anglo everyone cracked up and we went back to English.

It just depends on the situation. 2 people talking only to each other can speak whatever language is comfortable for them.

sped

Mon, Jul 20 2009, 3:59 am

I agree that it's not nice, but I find it really, really hard not to do so. Inevitably, if I am talking to an English speaker, the language will switch to English, even without my being aware. For example, DH (Israeli, Hebrew speaking) invited an American Bochur learning here for Shabbos. The bochur is close with DH and speaks a fluent Hebrew, as do I, of course. Without thinking, when I turned to bochur or responded to something he said, English came out, even though the language at the table was Hebrew.... No, it's not polite. What

Mrs.K

Mon, Jul 20 2009, 4:07 am

If I was in a situation where this would happen, I'd at very least turn to the person not understanding and explain, "We're discussing ABC." Just so the person understands that the conversation is not meant to exclude her, and that she can certainly add to the conversation now that she knows the topic.

To me it's similar to sitting around the table and everyone laughing hysterically at a private joke, I think it's just common decency to turn to the person that's left out and give a cursory explanation.

chanchy123

Mon, Jul 20 2009, 5:13 am

This happnes a lot in my family. My grandmother doesn't understand Hebrew, and as our family is growing more and more Hebrew is spoken. We usually try to speak English at the table when she is there, or Hebrew at the table if there is a guest who doesn't understand English, but it doesn't always work. The solution is to have someone sitting next to the uni-linguale guest and translate what's going on.
It is rude, but can't always be avoided. you should try to make sure that everyone could understand what's going on and feel a part of things and free to voice their opinions.

amother

Mon, Jul 20 2009, 6:53 am

valleymom you are so american not to see that everybody there speaks in different languages?
everytime I go to florida, california and NY the most common language it's spanish.
sometimes I speak in spanish to my spanish speaking friends without even realizing it, not to be rude.
I'm amother because my friends will now who I am, because of my spanish

ora_43

Mon, Jul 20 2009, 7:50 am

I don't think it's always rude.

Even for those of us who speak two languages fluently, one is often much easier to speak than the other. I can speak Hebrew pretty well, but I did learn it in my 20s, and it tends to require more mental effort. So I don't think it's unfair that if I'm in a group of friends with another English speaker, and we're talking between ourselves, that one or both of us sometimes switch into English. And I completely understand when the Spanish or Russian or French speakers do the same when we're in a mixed crowd. (It is nice in that situation to then give a brief explanation if you see someone listening, like "we were just talking about how X's mother came to visit last week," or "she was just telling me about her test on Thursday," etc).

If anything, it feels strange to davka speak Hebrew so that people you aren't talking to can understand (it always makes me very aware of my accent). And while I'm always curious hearing two people saying something I can't understand, I would also find it odd if they spoke my language just to allow me to listen in.

But if a number of people are participating in the conversation (for example, if I were speaking English with my friend and two other Israelis who understand English were listening, while one other person who didn't understand English was completely lost) then yes, it's rude.

And of course it's rude to speak about somebody in a different language, or to deliberately exclude them.

pinkbubbles

Mon, Jul 20 2009, 10:40 am

It depends on the situation, theres always going to be a time when its not rude I think.

but I cannot STAND when I am invited over to someones house and the whole family speaks Hebrew at the table and I cannot join the conversation at all. Their Hebrew is too quick for me and they all have family private jokes. They are Israeli but speak English very well and it doesn't bother them to switch, whereas if its me speaking Hebrew have to stop and think and I end up speaking very slowly - it makes me uncomfortable so I just don't say anything. DH and I agreed that we'll only go if there are other English speakers invited too because thats the only way they speak English at the table. I felt left out and wanted to leave as soon as I could because of this.

Barbara

Mon, Jul 20 2009, 11:07 am

louche wrote:

BinahYeteirah wrote:

Is it rude to speak a language in front of others who cannot understand it when there is a common language?

Yes.

*In front* of others, no.

In a social or other setting in which others are around, yes.

Eg -- You're in the local supermarket, chatting with a friend in Hebrew while checking out. You address the clerk politely in English, but continue your Hebrew converation with your friend. OK -- the clerk is not in a social setting with you, and has no reasonable expectation of being included in your conversation.

You're seated at a table at a Bar Mitzvah. Everyone speaks English, but 2 people at the table don't speak Hebrew. Its not polite to speak anything other than English. As to people who claim that switching languages cannot be helped -- barring Tourettes or some other issue that I'm not aware of, we control our own speech. Of course it can be helped. A person who doesn't know a phrase in the language spoken can always ask for translating help instead of going off into a whole different language.

Imaonwheels

Mon, Jul 20 2009, 2:05 pm

I have a situation nearly every week that davka the English speakers make it difficult. There are shiurimj going on at one time in Hebrew, English, French and Russian. The language of the hall is of course Ivrit. Excuse me, getting a cup of coffee or whatever. Often when there is a mixed group all talking in ivrit a few English women will interrupt every sentence of mine with "What did you say?" They don't do this to others and it is really annoying. If they talk to others they listen and try to speakIvrit but they seem to think that I have to give them a running translation of every convo they happen to hear.