Yoshke? | Imamother

littlefish1995

Sat, Mar 11 2006, 9:55 pm

Did anyone learn anything about Yoshke? Having attended an Orthodox school myself, you can imagine that little emphasis was placed on the life/history of Yoshke. The only thing I ever remember hearing from one of the rabbis was that Yoshke was a "ben sora amorah" (pardon the transliteration) and that was it. What, if anything, did you learn about him? What is the "official" (I.e., Jewish!) take on his existence and death?

BrachaVHatzlocha

Sat, Mar 11 2006, 11:35 pm

we learned how his mother wasn't really a "virgin"....people just assumed he was a son of G-d because he was born to a woman who wasn't married!!!
if you're curious for more stuff from the gemarah, I can ask my hsuband

chavamom

Sun, Mar 12 2006, 12:09 am

I don't think I learned he was a ben sorer u'morer. I learned that he used shemos (divine names) to do kishuf (magic) and rebelled against his rebbe, for what I don't remember. Also, he was assumed to be a mamzer - mother was engaged which was 'kiddushin' and made her assure to anyone else. She got pregnant while her intended was away, so while they couldn't prove he was a mamzer halachically, he was assumed to be one.

shaynaeliav

Sun, Mar 12 2006, 1:17 am

I remember a lecturer once saying that he had gotten involved in some scandalous activity regarding some inappropriate behavior with a woman (pl?) and that when he cam eto ask forgiveness from his rebbe, he was refused, and he asked again, and refused, and I think a third time, and so he went away and rebelled.
We are supposed to learn the seriousness of being overly harsh and critical-- just look at all the suffering the Jews have incurred b/c of this story.
That's what I remember. BTW, why do you ask?

Mandy

Sun, Mar 12 2006, 10:44 am

I went to an MO school and we learned the historical facts, that he existed and that he is known by various names in the gemara and that he was a novi sheker, but most of the changes came not from him but from his followers.

English

Sun, Mar 12 2006, 3:16 pm

I actually teach about his origins, and how
he founded his religion etc (I teach in a MO school) the only reason to learn about him is if you want to prove it to other people, my mind was so confused about it all!
Although he changed a few of the Mitzvos, he was not the one who went round publicising the whole way of life, but rather it was someone called Paul, who also changed many of our Mitzvos further! if you want a real lesson, im happy to give it!!!!!!!!!!!!

Motek

Sun, Mar 12 2006, 4:54 pm

I inquired and it's quite complicated since there are seven Gemaras that speak about him and they can't possibly all be speaking about the same person, which brings Tosfos and Tosfos Ha'Rosh to the conclusion that there were at least two Yeshus which makes it more confusing.

There are also "Megillos Yeshu" that are probably not true.

there is no mention in the Gemara of his being a ben sorer u'moreh

about being angry at the rebbeim - that's about Anan the founder of the Karaite movement

about woman's eyes pretty - it's a Gemara in Sota and Sanhedrin that Yeshu once made a comment about a woman's eyes that was inappropriate and Yehoshua ben Perachya put him in cherem. Yeshu kept coming back to him, pleading and he kept on ignoring him. Another time he came back and Yehoshua ben Perachya was in the middle of Shema so he motioned to him to wait but Yeshu misunderstood and thought he was being rejected, so he "erect a brick and served it" whatever that means. Yehoshua ben Perachya tried bringing him back but was unsuccessful and the Gemara says that Yeshu was machti the rabbim (caused the many to sin).

it's the other Yeshu who was a mamzer who is not called Yeshu in the Gemara