Nice article on women and changing times

yehudis

Sun, Jan 16 2005, 8:48 pm

http://www.orot.com/nkevah.html

sarahd

Mon, Jan 17 2005, 6:48 am

Fascinating! Did you forward this to MP?

ForeverYoung
Guest

Mon, Jan 17 2005, 10:20 am

THANK YOU!!!!!

Mon, Jan 17 2005, 10:55 am

It was good. I really liked it. I liked the way she tried to tie everything together.

Some questions were still not addressed however :
1. Why does chabad not say sheosani kertzono ?
2. She writes that :

Quote:

And just as after the redemption, we will rule according to the opinion of Shamai, rather than Hillel, because that is the truth that will apply at that time, so, regarding women we will also see new conditions. But it is a grave mistake to do something that contradicts our reality because it will be right in the future.

Basically, changing the world before it is ready is not good. But, she describes The Vilna Gaon doing the very same thing :

Quote:

The Vilna Gaon told his students that now that we have entered the 6th millennia, the general period of redemption, a special heavenly opportunity was being given to hasten the redemption in this way. Therefore, the Gaon started a movement to resettle the Land of Israel, undo the desolation, and make it fruitful.137 He called this plan Chazon Tsiyon, Vision of Zion.138 The return, he taught, will be twofold: a physical return to Zion and a spiritual return, repentance (teshuva).139 The plan would have to be carried out with holiness, being careful to keep the special commandments pertaining to the Land of Israel, in order to succeed.140 Kol HaTor quotes the verse from Isaiah: “House of Jacob go, and we will go in the light of G-d”.141 Later, in chapter six, he states that if the plan is not carried out in the spirit of G-d, it cannot succeed.142 Speaking in the Holy Tongue, also hastens the redemption, he taught, especially when done in the Land of Israel.143
And so, the students of the Vilna Gaon, and other dedicated Jews, went to settle in the land of Israel in order to start the redemption. They or their descendents managed to build fifty new neighborhoods in Jerusalem and start a few agricultural settlements in a land that was almost totally barren.144

3. This quote seems to be at odds with chabad philosophy regarding secular studies :

Quote:

Science, and all forms of earthly wisdom are all part of the Torah, and although they constitute its lowest level, Kol HaTor states that knowledge of them is necessary to reach understanding of the Torah’s higher levels.151 Furthermore, the Vilna Gaon taught, if Torah scholars will become masters of these forms of wisdom, this will be a great sanctification of G-d’s Name before the gentile nations, of which the Torah says: “For this is your wisdom and your understanding in the eyes of the nations.”152 Kol HaTor continues: “. . . and why should we leave this great property of our Holy Torah – or part of it – to others, and the Name of Heaven will be desecrated and the disgrace to Torah will become great”.153

On the contrary, The Alter Rebbe wrote that studying science and math is klipa. That's why children in chabad schools and other chassidish schools learn very little secular studies. Right ?

4. Finally, I do not think that when the changes described in this article happened ( women learning Torah, redeveloping Israel etc) everyone accepted it as the will of G-d. Many, many religious people do not accept it as rotzon Hashem even today. Therefore, it is hard to know which of the changes that take place in today's society in regards to women's roles, working outside the home, etc.- it is hard to know which ones are ratzon Hashem and which ones are "klipah" until we look back on it in history. Many religious people would argue even now that teaching Torah to women and redeveloping the land of Israel is a klipah-type distortion of Torah Judaism.

Finally, when I wrote that the writings of the gemara about women's natures did not apply to our times, everyone wrote back that this means I do not understand or accept the total relevance of Torah for all generations. But she writes the same thing :

Quote:

The descriptions of women found in the Talmud or later writings were accurate at that time

So does she also negate how relevant gemara is to our times today ? Why is it okay to say that some things in the gemara applied only then and other things in the gemara apply forever ? Who gets to choose which things apply forever and which things are "accurate at that time"only ?

ForeverYoung
Guest

Mon, Jan 17 2005, 11:26 am

Quote:

I do not think that when the changes described in this article happened ( women learning Torah, redeveloping Israel etc) everyone accepted it as the will of G-d. Many, many religious people do not accept it as rotzon Hashem even today.

They do not accept as ratzon H' the pritzus that is going on in Eretz Yisroel
(and neither do I)

They do not accept as ratzon H' women who learn not for the sake of being closer to H' but for the sake of being equal to man (which was discussed in feministic thread, so let's not start it again here)

Quote:

Why does chabad not say sheosani kertzono

1. I actually think they do
2. this is an issue within chabad and should be addressed in a separate thread to Lubaviches only - you're welcome to begin that thread and I'm sure somebody will explain
3. as far as I know the rest of the Jews says it

Quote:

But it is a grave mistake to do something that contradicts our reality because it will be right in the future. <...> now that we have entered the 6th millennia, the general period of redemption, a special heavenly opportunity was being given to hasten the redemption in this way.

Self-contradicting? NO
How about complimanting?

by preparing to Geula we do not change the reality. We're preparing to meet the new reality when it comes.

Quote:

This quote seems to be at odds with chabad philosophy regarding secular studies

One can study astrology from a texbook or one can study it indirectly through gemarah, which discusses it in detail.

See the difference?

Besides, all issues specific to a sertain group within the Judaism should be discussed in separate threads, so as not to get sidetracked.

This issue was discussed elsewhere, search for Lubavixh Rebbe's view on secular studies.

Need to finish the article to adress the rest of your questions.

gryp

Mon, Jan 17 2005, 11:30 am

I havent yet read the article but as far as "shelo asani isha," minhag chabad is NOT to say it, but the Rebbe said, if you are already saying it, you should NOT stop. it is in the siddur, though.

ForeverYoung
Guest

Mon, Jan 17 2005, 11:48 am

I made a new thread for this.
p;s post answers to the

lo asani
she asani

here:
http://imamother.com/forum/vie.....13666

thanks
Smile

Rivka

Mon, Jan 17 2005, 3:42 pm

Actually those that are against Israel being a Jewish state are the neturai karte and really they are not most Jews.
Also about the freeness of Israel (nice way of putting it) I don't agree in that either, but I wa told that because Israel is such a holy place then there has to be the equal of bad in it and I guess that is why there are so many people there who aren't frum and who are going just for "fun"

Motek

Mon, Jan 17 2005, 5:34 pm

Yehudis - do you know anything about the author of the article?

Quote:

The Alter Rebbe wrote that studying science and math is klipa.

not a full quote

see the Secular Studies thread in Chinuch section (as FY suggested)

Quote:

it is hard to know which ones are ratzon Hashem and which ones are "klipah"

true, good point

Quote:

So does she also negate how relevant gemara is to our times today ?

would have to go back and check the context, but the quote, as is, sounds problematic to me

Quote:

Who gets to choose which things apply forever and which things are "accurate at that time" only ?

recognized, outstanding Torah sages

Quote:

Many, many religious people do not accept it as rotzon Hashem even today.

re Israel - chareidi Jews, for the most part, do not accept the establishment of a secular, anti-Torah state as desirable or the fulfillment of messianic prophecies

but everything, everything, is the ratzon of Hashem

Quote:

One can study astrology from a texbook or one can study it indirectly through gemarah, which discusses it in detail.

or one can study it from a textbook in order to understand the Gemara

yehudis

Mon, Jan 17 2005, 7:11 pm

I don't know anything about the author, but I can tell you how I found the article Smile

.

A friend lent me a magazine for women which was supposed to be the first issue, but it never worked out, because the editor, whose name is Talia Applebaum (sp?), did not get enough funding, so no more issues came out. Which is a pity, because the first issue is really nice. If anybody has any wealthy relatives who could support it, let me know Smile

.

So anyway, in that magazine they had an excerpt from Gila Manolson's book about dating (don't remember the name), and there was a footnote with this URL.

yehudis

Mon, Jan 17 2005, 9:11 pm

As I understand it, even those people who are against the state of Israel still believe in the value of living on the land and developing the land, so there is no contradiction there. (They do not believe that there should be a Jewish state until mashiach comes. I am not going to make any political statements here, because I might get carried away.)

Mon, Jan 17 2005, 10:50 pm

And also, here is another question about one of the topics mentioned in the article. Not specifically related to men and women. Quite a bit of her explanations rely on het eitz hadaas. So a basic question cam to mind : how did Adam and Chava truly have freedom of choice in this sin ? After all, if they had not sinned, if Chava would have rejected the fruit, then the world would have no purpose - it would just be olam haboh or zman moshiach and the purpose of the world ( dira betachtonim, struggling to bring G-dliness into the world etc.) would have already been done and
G-d would have had no purpose in creating that world. So wasn't it almost necessary for them to sin in order for the point of creation to continue ?

yehudis

Mon, Jan 17 2005, 11:12 pm

mp wrote:

So a basic question cam to mind : how did Adam and Chava truly have freedom of choice in this sin ? After all, if they had not sinned, if Chava would have rejected the fruit, then the world would have no purpose - it would just be olam haboh or zman moshiach and the purpose of the world ( dira betachtonim, struggling to bring G-dliness into the world etc.) would have already been done and
G-d would have had no purpose in creating that world. So wasn't it almost necessary for them to sin in order for the point of creation to continue ?

But before the sin, they had one mitzvah -- not to eat the fruit. Had they fulfilled this mitzvah, they would have brought the world to perfection. That would have been enough to justify their creation.

But since they did not fulfill this mitzvah, we now have much more to work on to get to the same goal.

yehudis

Mon, Jan 17 2005, 11:19 pm

I don't know about the Chabad view of secular studies -- I don't understand it. I guess I should ask questions in that thread instead of this one.

But anyway, the Vilna Gaon certainly believed in studying math -- he wrote a math textbook. Also, he recommended studying geometry in order to understand gemara better.

yehudis

Mon, Jan 17 2005, 11:28 pm

I think this is the answer to the question about not doing things before their time and why the Vilna Gaon sent his students to Eretz Yisrael.

Quote:

According to Kol HaTor, the Vilna Gaon was informed by our forefather Ya’akov of the heavenly opportunity to hasten the redemption by settling the land of Israel and properly using the other powers of Moshiach ben Yosef.

If someone is on a high enough level to be told by Yaakov Avinu to do something, he probably knows when the right time is.

sarahd

Tue, Jan 18 2005, 3:51 am

mp wrote:

how did Adam and Chava truly have freedom of choice in this sin ? After all, if they had not sinned, if Chava would have rejected the fruit, then the world would have no purpose - it would just be olam haboh or zman moshiach and the purpose of the world ( dira betachtonim, struggling to bring G-dliness into the world etc.) would have already been done and
G-d would have had no purpose in creating that world. So wasn't it almost necessary for them to sin in order for the point of creation to continue ?

If I'm not mistaken, this was one of Adam's reasons for eating from the Etz Hadaas. However, we are not supposed to do Hashem's thinking for Him. Rather, we should follow His orders and let Him take care of the results.

Motek

Tue, Jan 18 2005, 10:51 am

Quote:

how did Adam and Chava truly have freedom of choice in this sin ?

This is a deep subject. It says in Tehillim, "nora alila al bnei adam" - the Medrash says on these words in Tehillim, "alila nitla bo (with Adam Ha'Rishon and the cheit eitz ha'daas)," that sometimes the evil of the yetzer hara triumphs and man sins because from Above they incited the yetzer hara against him to bring him to sin."

in our terminology, "nora alila al bnei adam" means it's a "put-up job" Confused

the Gemara in Sanhedrin says "nora alila" is also said on the cheit ha'egel (sin of the golden calf) and the story of Dovid and Bas-Sheva

in the maamar Basi L'Gani 5731, the Lubavitcher Rebbe says an aveira is hepech ratzon ha'elyon (the opposite of what G-d wants). Yet, the fact that something that is hepech ratzon ha'elyon occurred, is part of the Divine plan=kavana elyona!

The proof that this is part of the Divine plan is nora alila al bnei adam, that Hashem empowers the yetzer hara to overpower someone sometimes.

The Rebbe also maintains that the fact that this Divine plan is in place doesn't negate a person's free will! The manner in which the power is given to the yetzer hara (also the divine help that a person is given to overcome the yetzer hara) is provided in a way that a person doesn't sense it, so it doesn't force his decision and ultimately he's responsible for his action.

and the point of it all is yerida l'tzorech aliya (a descent for the purpose of an ascent)

before asking further questions on this mp, I request that you study these sources

this is definitely not a topic for casual discussion without a familiarity with the original sources