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Motek




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 20 2005, 11:02 am
"umos ha'olam" is how the Tanya was originally written

"umos ovdei gilulim" is what the censor changed it to (in those days too, you needed to be politically correct)

(there's a luach ha'tikun - page of corrections in the back of some Tanyas; other Tanyas have the corrections inserted in the text)

yes, I'm impressed that you looked it up! Smile

the missing piece is the understanding of "kelipas noga"

those things which derive from the 3 impure kelipos are forbidden and can never be elevated

lots of things in this world are from kelipas noga - the "shining kelipa", I.e. it is kelipa but it has some redeeming qualities, a good part to it, and if the thing is used properly, in the service of G-d, it can and does become elevated to holiness

so kosher food, anything permissible according to Torah, is sort of "neutral" or "pareve" in that it can go either way, up or down, to kelipa or kedusha, no inherent contamination!

Quote:
"chachmas haumos ovdei gilulim." Does he define this somewhere?


I don't know why this phrase is used, can try to inquire

definition? the non-Torah wisdom of the gentiles

although everything is contained in Torah, obviously, gentiles don't derive their wisdom from Torah

Quote:
he says that using them as a tool to serve Hashem is permitted. So what exactly was he talking about above? Studying them just for fun? Sort of lishma? What exactly is the difference?


people, Jews, study non-Torah subjects, right? Why do they do so?

What do YOU think?

I think people study them because they find them interesting and/or because they want to earn more money. Neither or those reasons has anything to do with G-d. It's about me, and what I want to do.

Quote:
Doesn't this apply to everyone who works to make a living, whether they've studied for it or not?


yes, but when a person opens a grocery store and it's not for the sake of heaven, that's one thing, but when a person studies secular wisdom and it's not for the sake of heaven, that studying contaminates one's intellect
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gryp




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 20 2005, 3:09 pm
Quote:
BTW, what is the whole thing about shattering the vessels about?


im not sure how this ties in, but I almost missed that sentence. its called "shviras hakeilim," "the shattering of the vessels." Originally Hashem created Olam Hatikun and Olam Hatohu. Olam Hatikun was full of vessels to contain the light of G-dliness and Olam Hatohu was full of the light of G-dliness. the vessels were supposed to contain the light but the light was too much and fell all over. our job is to "find" these sparks of light and "return" them.

Chassidus explains that when Avraham was travelling all over by Hashem's command, he was actually gathering these sparks (called nitzotzos), and before Bnei Yisroel left mitzrayim they also had to gather a certain amount (202) before they could be redeemed.

now I am no expert on kabbalah, so heres a follow-up link:
http://www.kabbalaonline.org/M.....s.asp
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yehudis




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 20 2005, 11:05 pm
Motek and RG, thanks, I think I understand it now. Although this seems like a completely different picture from what I got when I was reading the thread about the Lubavitcher Rebbe's view of secular studies. In that thread, people were saying that secular studies are completely impure. From what I understand here, the Tanya is saying that they can be used either for good or for evil, depending on the person's intent. Is that correct?

And I see what you're saying about how it's worse to misuse secular knowledge than things that don't involve the intellect.

I once heard from someone (don't remember who) that everything we do is either a mitzvah or an aveira, depending on whether or not we're doing it leshem shamayim. I guess we have to work on asking ourselves this question before we do anything.
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Motek




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 20 2005, 11:47 pm
yehudis wrote:
In that thread, people were saying that secular studies are completely impure.


put it this way - if it was completely impure, meaning prohibited, it would not be in any frum schools no matter how many parents would refuse to send their children to a school without it!

Quote:
From what I understand here, the Tanya is saying that they can be used either for good or for evil, depending on the person's intent. Is that correct?


yes

Quote:
I once heard from someone (don't remember who) that everything we do is either a mitzvah or an aveira, depending on whether or not we're doing it leshem shamayim.


that's taught in Tanya Smile
that whatever you do is either bringing you closer to G-d or distancing you from Him

that anything at all that is not serving Him, is a subtle form of idol worship shock

Quote:
I guess we have to work on asking ourselves this question before we do anything


absolutely

see the thread about the Pursuit of Pleasure
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yehudis




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jan 21 2005, 4:01 pm
Motek wrote:

put it this way - if it was completely impure, meaning prohibited, it would not be in any frum schools no matter how many parents would refuse to send their children to a school without it!


So what is wrong then with sitting down with a child and teaching him fractions because it will help him in learning gemara?

[quote]
Quote:
I once heard from someone (don't remember who) that everything we do is either a mitzvah or an aveira, depending on whether or not we're doing it leshem shamayim.


that's taught in Tanya Smile [quote]

Hmm, maybe I heard it from a Lubavitcher Smile. We know lots of Chabad people, and we really like them Smile.
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roza




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 23 2005, 1:38 am
from the article above- the secular studies are NOT part of the Torah.
it's secondary and can not be learned lishmoh like Torah lehavdil. they can be learned loh lishmoh as for parnasa or to get some skills.
(interesting article btw)


Last edited by roza on Sun, Jan 23 2005, 11:21 am; edited 1 time in total
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Motek




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 23 2005, 9:56 am
Yehudis wrote:

So what is wrong then with sitting down with a child and teaching him fractions because it will help him in learning gemara?


which Gemara?

or do you mean that one day, he might come across something in his learning that will require knowledge of fractions?

Quote:
We know lots of Chabad people, and we really like them Smile


Very Happy

Quote:
IT is written in the introduction to the misilas yesharim


I took our my copy of M.Y. and a quick skim didn't find it. Can you please tell me where? (para. beginning with what)
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yehudis




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 23 2005, 1:20 pm
Motek wrote:
Yehudis wrote:

So what is wrong then with sitting down with a child and teaching him fractions because it will help him in learning gemara?


which Gemara?


Chulin, I guess. Where it talks about 1/60 and taste. Although my husband told me that it doesn't really says 1/60, but something like 1 part and 60 parts. Still, it seems to me that it would be easier for someone to understand if he is familiar with fractions.

But there are other examples too. Like gemara Sukka and computing circumference.
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Motek




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 23 2005, 2:51 pm
"Chulin" is not a "yeshivishe mesechta" (in other words, boys go through decades of yeshiva without encountering it) and Suka - well, some 9th graders learn it, and in Oholei Torah mesivta where they learned it in 9th grade, the boys didn't have to learn math for the eight years of elementary school in order to master the one amud of the mesechta which deals with circumference etc.
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sarahd




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 23 2005, 3:22 pm
Quote:
"Chulin" is not a "yeshivishe mesechta"
doesn't seem to me to be a very good reason not to learn mathematics, if that's necessary in order to understand it. My husband actually says that the boys in his yeshiva who didn't learn math in school had a very hard time understanding certain masechtos (forgot which ones he said) which were simple for my husband to master.
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gryp




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 23 2005, 3:35 pm
well, I learned about circumference and the other math subjects and even calculus, but it was all and still is chinese to me. so it all depends on whether you have a head for it or not... I dont see why the teacher cant just teach them something specific that has to do with what theyre learning, instead of going through all those years of worthless equations...
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Motek




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 23 2005, 5:09 pm
Quote:
doesn't seem to me to be a very good reason not to learn mathematics, if that's necessary in order to understand it.


it seems you missed my point then

if it's necessary to learn it, in order to understand the Gemara, that's PRECISELY when and why they should learn it!

has anybody read, "The Emperor's New Clothes Revisited" - a book that critiques our frum school's secular studies curriculum? (I'd provide a link if I could find one, maybe someone else can)
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yehudis




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 23 2005, 6:16 pm
Motek wrote:

has anybody read, "The Emperor's New Clothes Revisited" - a book that critiques our frum school's secular studies curriculum? (I'd provide a link if I could find one, maybe someone else can)


I've seen it in the bookstore. What are her main points?

I don't know anything about boys' yeshiva curriculum, so I have no idea when they need to learn those math concepts.
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yehudis




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 23 2005, 6:23 pm
RG wrote:
well, I learned about circumference and the other math subjects and even calculus, but it was all and still is chinese to me. so it all depends on whether you have a head for it or not...


Also depends on how they teach it. Do you really think that Russian and Chinese kids have better heads than Americans? And they, on average, do so much better at math.
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