Frum and middle income: how to make it work?

shabbatiscoming

Tue, May 09 2006, 3:50 am

Tzippy wrote:

If you are making aliya, you must check out the school systems! With a computer you can find out soooo much!
Information on Israeli school systems can be easily obtained on the Misrad Hachinuch website. (The structure works similarly to the English school system, which makes it easier for those from England in some ways).
Information about SPECIFIC schools in Israel can easily be gleaned by enrolling in the English speaking lists/forums for the city you are in. EX: If you are considering Yerushalyaim, there is Janglo, if you want any other city where English speakers reside, these lists are there. In Google type in the city name and the list should appear.
The cheder system I know about through my cousins who I am very close to. (they usually don't have websites)

I made aliyah 3 years ago and I came by myself. I only got married a little while ago so before I came I was not thinking bechlal about children and education. but now that I am married and IYH there should be children in the future I have been thinking about all of the different types of school systems. thank you for all of the info, now I know what there is. all I knew was that there were three different school systems.

batamig

Tue, May 09 2006, 7:56 am

batya_d wrote:

Those of you who have made aliyah-- one of my biggest reasons why I don't want to move to Israel at this point in my life is because I don't want to deprive my parents of their grandchildren. I grew up very close to all my grandparents, aunts and uncles, and can't imagine having a long-distance family! How do you cope with this?

it is very difficult. I myself came directly after seminary, where I was so enthusiastic about it that I wasnt really thinking about much else. now I am married and have a daughter, and I wonder if I would do it all over again. it just so happens that my inlaws are hoping to make aliyah next year, and my own parents in the somewhat near future, but my daughter has great grandparents, second cousins, great aunts and uncles that will see her perhaps 1nce a yr. it is very hard for me to swallow, but it is the life we have chosen for ourselves and I can imagine how we could go back - we are too settled, too israelified, and we love it.

basically your friends become your family - we are very close. many olim do not have family here, so they crave it in the same way that we do.
otherwise we keep in touch with our family very well! email, internet - we post pictures and videos online, and I send a big update on our life every so often, very descriptive - to all our extended family.

it is hard, but worth it.

amother

Tue, May 09 2006, 12:50 pm

Quote:

Yes, BY is free because it's Chinuch Atzmai, but chareidi boys' schools are private and are totally outside the state system. (There are some chareidi Chinuch Atzmai boys' schools but they are

Yeah, and my cousin who lives there told me that the price for cheder went up from $60 a month to $120 a month, something like that ... a joke compared to the U.S.

Anybody read "Rich Dad, Poor Dad"? It pays to read just the first chapter which shows how most people have a "poor" mentality, even if they make a decent salary. Very fascinating - changes your perspective on money.

His main point is you're not gonna make it if you don't have passive income, income from real estate property for example.

If your husband (and you) are gonna keep on working, day in and day out, and you keep using what you make to pay your bills, you're going nowhere.

True for those who are thinking down the road and making weddings ... and further down the road to old age and how they will support themselves. Too many people have savings that are used up on their healthcare.

Invested in the market? mutual funds? Know how many people lost their money in the recent crash? Sad

But then again, where is bitachon? The ol' hishtadlus - bitachon issue ...

shalhevet

Tue, May 09 2006, 3:25 pm

Tzippy I have no idea where you get all your (mis)information from. There are so many inaccuracies and outright lies here I don't even know where to start.

Tzippy wrote:

In Israel it all depends on the CITY! Some of the state religious schools are far more excellent than the chareidi system.

Really. What standards of excellence do you have? Sending to a school which is required by law to accept any child, regardless of the religios level of the family. There are many (though certainly not all) teachers who don't keep some of the mitzvot.

Quote:

To be a teacher getting paid thru Misrad Hachinuch a teacher has to go through vigorous training. It is an intensive teacher training system. Those teachers have to follow strict policies-and formal protocols.
Those in the charedi systems do not need that training to teach, therefore there is more 'winging it'. Teachers in the chareidi system teach a ton of hashkafa and Torah, but actual skills are not necessarily taught.

Teachers in Beis Yaakov have their own seminaries which are also under misrad hachinuch supervision with the same standards. Many md teachers are university graduates, which means that they get much less teacher training than a teacher training graduate, whether mamlachti dati or BY. The rebbes do not neccesarily get formal training , though an increasing number do, and are usually hand picked for their way with teaching.

Quote:

When you walk into a Bais Yaakov, chances are that the teacher is going to be a few years out of seminary. Same for many chadorim.

Oh really! Where do you hear these "facts"? In Israel, due to economic neccesity plus many BY teachers are kolel wives almost all teachers stay for many, many years until they retire. Davka the rebbes are usually older since they have learned in kolel for a few years.

Quote:

Misrad Hachinuch teachers have inspectors (like the English system) that come in and reevaluate the teachers every year. When you walk into a chardal or dati leumi state school, the teachers are older and more experienced. The ones that can't teach have been fired. There are also standardized testing called Meitzav (elementary school),

Absolutely no difference here between state and BY. I wish they had inspectors every year! I teach in a mamlachti school. I doubt inspectors get to anyone except new teachers. BTW it is almost impossible to fire a teacher with tenure (2 years) and I think in the chadarim it is probably easier to fire a poor rebbe. By also do Meitzav and some do bagrut (matter of hashkafa).

Quote:

Misrad Hachinuch teachers get paid better salaries with benefits. They are forced by their contracts to take hishtamliyut, which are teacher training classes to enrich their skills.

Same salary system. Hishtalmuyot are optional in both systems and are encouraged by salary increments.

Quote:

Anyone can be a Rebbe or Morah in the cheder system if they meet the livush requirements (no denim, velvet kippah, one or two headcoverings for women, thick stockings, etc..). There is no middos or formal skills except for a seminary degree and a few kollel years.

Really?? a seminary degree = the same level of teacher training as other teachers.

Quote:

Many chareidi school systems do not teach science, geography, computers, or limudei chol. Most of my chareidi cousins in Israel are proud that they have never had a science class. Some only learn in Yiddish.

Girls schools learn similar curriculum including all the chol subjects. Boys' schools depend. You can usually find one to your liking. All teach Hebrew and math. It is really a matter of parental preference. We want our sons to be gedolim in torah.
When the time comes to earn a living they can go into chinuch, business, sofros, start a shop etc. Today there are many courses for those who wish to leave kolel to earn a living, and they learn very quickly after their minds being honed on gemoro for years. My cousin learned for about 15 years, after completing the chareidi 'system'. He then learned programming on one of these courses and now has an excellent job with a highly paid salary and is a talmid chacham of note.

merpk

Tue, May 23 2006, 6:54 am

The whole cost of everything is one of the many reasons we are b'e'H making aliyah. Smile

The few khareidi schools we've looked into in Israel have tuition in the area of 3000 to 6000 NIS, which translates to still less than $2000 a year. Considering the yeshiva we're stuck in here wants $9000 for preschool, and $10,000 and up for first grade and up ... it's not even in the ballpark of an issue.

I keep typing paragraphs here and deleting them, won't go on. I get ranty on the subject of money and wealth and frum folks and all that. Sad

The posts from Tzippy and m'o'6 were both interesting.

I don't get one thing about the whole kollel gestalt, though ... it's great that you want your kids to be talmidei khakhamim and all, and that they can be employed in khinukh or maybe take a little computer course'le and get a job ... but after a generation or two or three of that, where will they get their medical care from? Oh, right, let's rely on all the G!dless secular folks for that.

Not getting that attitude at all. HaShem's bri'ah is so incredible, awesome and mindblowing ... what's the problem with learning about it in scientific detail?

But that's off-topic, I know.

mimsy7420

Tue, May 23 2006, 11:38 am

Quote:

Actually, the reality is that men who have only studied Jewish studies can very quickly learn e.g. maths that people have learned in 12+ years of schooling, because of the way learning gemara trains someone to think. (This is a fact, not a theory)

I actually disagree with that - I know a lot of yeshiva guys who marks got "bumped up" in yeshiva and got into universities - or even skipped their BA entirely and got into Law school or an MBA program with a BA in talmudic law (big scam I know) - and now have no clue what they are doing- don't know how to write an essay or proper grammar -they don't know the basic sof math- and its a big eye opener for them - just because they got 90's in yeshiva does not mean they will get 90's in law school! Sometimes its really hard for these boys and their self esteem when they realise they aren't so smart (my father is a psychologist and he has seen MANY guys with this problem)

Quote:

(This is a fact, not a theory)

I don't know where you get your "facts" since they obviously have no way of researching this! It's true some super geniuses in gemara might do well in school - but this is no fact.

shalhevet

Tue, May 23 2006, 1:31 pm

only1 wrote:

Quote:

I actually disagree with that - - and now have no clue what they are doing- don't know how to write an essay or proper grammar -they don't know the basic sof math-

Quote:

(This is a fact, not a theory)

I don't know where you get your "facts" since they obviously have no way of researching this! It's true some super geniuses in gemara might do well in school - but this is no fact.

I wasn't talking about American college. I was talking about programmes specifically for avreichim where they study a career such as programming etc. (They have such courses in Israel) Of course they don't know math, but they pick it up very quickly. It is a fact that they cover the material in a few months to reach high school level and beyond. I would imagine that someone who has not had a thorough education in his native language will not suddenly be able to write college papers. I am not saying that someone who has spent the first 20-30 years of his life learning gemora can go to medical school. I am trying to say that in order to acquire a trade/ profession in which someone can have a parnasa there is no need to study secular subjects before the need arises.
It really depends if your aim is 'my son, the doctor' or 'my son, the talmid chacham'