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Sub forum for imamothers losing their emunah
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saw50st8




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 15 2010, 11:15 am
From my experience with Chassidus, its a lot more esoteric and requires a lot more suspension of logic than say the mussar movement. But I have little experience with it.
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gryp




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 15 2010, 11:25 am
The people I know who I would consider masters of Chassidus are straight geniuses (FFB) and scientists, professors, mathematicians (BT). It takes a math brain to really delve into, but BH so many difficult works have been translated and explained on a simple level, and in English. So it's really very accessible.
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saw50st8




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 15 2010, 11:28 am
GR wrote:
The people I know who I would consider masters of Chassidus are straight geniuses (FFB) and scientists, professors, mathematicians (BT). It takes a math brain to really delve into, but BH so many difficult works have been translated and explained on a simple level, and in English. So it's really very accessible.


I'm not saying you have to be stupid to appreciate Chassidus, but it is much more esoteric. I would think people struggling with "Does G-d exist and how do we prove it?" wou;d have a harder time with Chassidus.

But maybe I'm wrong.
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gryp




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 15 2010, 11:34 am
I get what you are saying, I think.

If one is going to learn Chassidus as proof of "Does G-d really exist?" I doubt they'll get far since they'll be forever questioning whether or not what they're learning is true. Same as reading the story of Beraishis and expecting it to be absolute logical proof.

Personally, in my own life, because I can look at it from a Chassidic perspective, these questions don't come up because life experience has taught me again and again that what I believe is real.
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amother


 

Post Wed, Dec 15 2010, 11:46 am
GR wrote:
Chassidus has been from before Creation, and is as old as the Torah itself. It was only revealed much later when appropriate- at the time when people didn't know much and were in danger of losing what they had.... Chassidus isn't new, made-up anything. It is the hidden parts of Torah which were only revealed by Eliyahu Hanavi to the Baal Shem Tov, as a last resort, because of Klal Yisroel's situation.

How do you know this? How do you know chassidus isn't just a made up thing?
For that matter, why is the Rambam's philosophy or anyone else's more than just a guess about how the world works.
I'm not attacking. I sincerely want to know.
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gryp




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 15 2010, 1:15 pm
Like I said before, if I wanted to examine anything and everything that I've ever learned, and see if I could prove it logically, I'd probably be crossing everything out. I can not prove these things to other people, I'm not genius like that.

For myself though, Chassidus explains how everything that has happened in this world from before Day 1 is one big Master Plan, and all the puzzle pieces of history fit in nicely for me.

From Adam through Avraham through Moshe through the Churbans through the Rishonim and Acharonim till today, all these people and events are all connected. They aren't random people or happenings with no connection to each other. It's one long thread of history with a specific purpose in mind- in G-d's mind. He is in charge and He knows what He's doing. Although there are certainly tough times and there always has been, that doesn't change the fact that it is all part of G-d's plan.

Rambam, Ramban, and the rest of the Tzaddikim who may disagree with each other here and there, don't faze me. They are who and how they are supposed to be. G-d decided this, and this too is part of His plan.

(I actually did something yesterday that I almost never do, I took the hour that my daughter naps and used it to watch a video that explained a concept in the Parsha. The title mentioned something about Satmar and Lubavitch, so it caught my eye, and the guy (Rabbi YY Jacobson) giving the shiur is someone I always enjoyed listening to, so I did it. Basically, he explained why Yaakov switched his hands when benching Menashe and Efraim, and he went on to details the fascinating differences between Menashe and Efraim- what they stood for, who they were in essence, and how it is a real lesson for us today.

This is one relevant example of what I'm trying to say above. When we are confronted with a glaring contradiction, such as the Rambam vs. the Ramban, Satmar vs. Lubavitch, the kollel lifestyle vs. the working men, Chassidus will come along and explain the advantages and disadvantages of both, each at a time, why both are necessary, and then explain how it is relevant to us today with a lesson for us to take from it.

My point, I guess, is that enough of my questions have been answered that my mind wouldn't even go to "Does G-d really exist" because it only makes sense to me by now, that He does. Building on that, I can believe that there are certain people called "Chachamim" and "Tzaddikim" and I can earn their trust and follow their guidance.

It is something life has taught me for myself though, not something I can write down on paper expect everyone to agree that I'm right.
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amother


 

Post Wed, Dec 15 2010, 3:19 pm
Quote:
I'm in this boat but don't think I'd ever join such a forum. I can't see it being helpful at all. It would just make things much worse. Does anyone think their emunah will get strengthened from such a forum? You think that someone who is also doubting will be able to answer your questions?

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After that, struggling is actually part and parcel of us believing in addition that H' wants us to try to use the siechel that He gave us to try to understand better what this world, with its suffering and apparent injustices is all about.

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would think its more about how to maintain yourself in a frum world if you have trouble believing.

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For me. I do think that Yiddishkeit is beautiful and true and all but I have a very hard time believing that the way it's practiced today is the true way (I'm Charedi) and I have a hard time with all these restrictions especially when I don't believe in many of them.

It’s to these kind of women that I mentioned the segulah and not ch”v to you -- amother and to you --------- amother because you’re not looking to strengthen your emunah. Most people know that it’s very easy to ask questions and very hard to find answers that will satisfy everyone completely, so the most HELPFUL solution is something constructive, something to help them along the way, and this is what I proposed.

Quote:
yes you are being nasty on a thread that I started to get support. your responses are unhelpful, are not even trying to be helpful, and are just taking away from the thread.

thank you though for proving the need for a subforum

If you are indeed intelligent as you consider yourself and truthful and you will go through all 14 pages of this thread, you will not find any “intellectual” useful responses from anyone except from Shalhevet (that is, if you consider her an intellectual). She’s the only one who actually posted tzum zach and who tries, albeit unsuccessfully, to give you to understand it thoughtfully. There are also another two who are trying to undo the knots of these heavy doubts by clarifying reasonably how your attitude and thinking is incorrect.

All the others who posted on these pages are just reiterating the same doubts in emunah over and over again in a different guise, including doubts on Midrash, on Chumash, on Gemora, on Tzaddikim, on BY, on the shittos that’s not their derech, and what not. How do they say it in Ivrit? Otta giveret beshinuyi aderet (the same woman with a different outfit)... Not one of these posters have added any intellectual thoughts for those who have emunah issues. The only intellectual part that they all have in common is that they feel comfortable asking questions. And yet, I’m the only one who doesn’t belong on this thread...

Quote:
This thread is for people who are grappling with basics of yiddishkeit, intellectually. Even people who have no emuna problems don't believe in segulas, so kal v'chomer, we who are grappling don't want to be told to repeat something over and over again and that will get rid of the questions. We want intellectual answers.

The fact is that those who are having these questions and doubts are not because they’re more intelligent, but it’s an indication of their weak education in the basics of emunah and hashkofah. Now you want to make a forum to find others who also have a full stomach of questions and doubts to make you feel better that you’re not the only one with this problem. So it’s not really the answers you’re interested in but the questions, because even if great minds will dispute it with you until they’ll turn blue in their face, you will never be satisfied and continue having questions and doubts in your emunah until the end of your days, because, after all, they’re not “the” intellectuals you’re looking for.

And to Shalhevet I will say, before being the only one to undertake this risky debate of answering all those coming to you with a bauch full of questions in emunah if the forum "Borderline Apikores" will ever come to pass, review the misna in Pirkei Avos.

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Posts like yours show that you really don't understand what we are going through, luckily for you, and that's what kind of posts she was trying to avoid by having a private forum, which I personally am not for.

Luckily for me? Halevai! Is there anyone besides tzaddikim gedolim who have the perfect emunah? If you wouldn’t have ignored my posts earlier, you’d have read that I too want a sub-forum, but for bitochon. Emunah is not something I’m ready to dig into and ch”v lose whatever I have while digging. I’d rather fulfill the mitzvah of תמים תהי' עם ה' אלקיך literally with emunah pshuta than forfeit my Olam Haba.

What puzzles me is that you would hang at least 1 mezuzah on one of your doorposts at least for protection (from Hashem) if not for the mitzvah, and you would ask Hashem for help if you or a family member of yours is ch”v sick or in danger or in need of assistance (and so would all those people who consider themselves atheists). Now isn’t that odd from people who have little or no emunah in Hashem? What’s your intellectual and logical reason for this? If you have doubts, why are you still holding on to Him? Do you expect Him to help you? And if you will be helped, will you believe that He was behind it and He was the One Who send the right professional help you needed?

Another thing that confuses me, how so many of you are ready to be included in saying Tehillim or undertaking a certain mitzvah for someone in need. Do you or don’t you believe?

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even though you really don't belong on this thread, especially since you're taking things personally.

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oh and I am bashing under amother because I started this thread and I dont need to out myself because you decided to come along and ruin it.

Although, like almost everyone else in this thread, I’m not an “intellectual” nor a philosopher nor have an eloquent style of writing, I tried at least to give a suggestion to those who would like just a bit of extra help because they know they’ll never be satisfied with any answers anyhow. But, can you tell me why you need intellectual responses if you’re not intelligent enough to realize how nasty and offensive the posts of both of you are and still have the nerve to say that I shouldn’t take it personally if I was hurt personally? Did I really ruin it by suggesting a segulah for those who are interested? Is my post any different than what another poster (who wasn’t bashed or told she doesn’t belong on this thread) wrote: Asking each other what books/shiurim/arguments helped the most with certain issues.

I am posting as amother now and should’ve done so lechatchilah in this thread like others did, not in order to hide my identity because I’m not ashamed of what I’m saying, but for obvious reasons...
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sequoia




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 15 2010, 3:24 pm
amother wrote:
, and you would ask Hashem for help if you or a family member of yours is ch”v sick or in danger or in need of assistance (and so would all those people who consider themselves atheists).


That simply isn't true. I don't know if there are any atheists on this board, but genuine atheists certainly don't change their views because they're sick or in trouble (e.g. Christopher Hitchens).
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amother


 

Post Wed, Dec 15 2010, 3:31 pm
This thread is getting confusing with all the amothers. I'm assuming you're BSD. Just want to point out that all these posts are mine.

Quote:
I'm in this boat but don't think I'd ever join such a forum. I can't see it being helpful at all. It would just make things much worse. Does anyone think their emunah will get strengthened from such a forum? You think that someone who is also doubting will be able to answer your questions?


Quote:
This thread is for people who are grappling with basics of yiddishkeit, intellectually. Even people who have no emuna problems don't believe in segulas, so kal v'chomer, we who are grappling don't want to be told to repeat something over and over again and that will get rid of the questions. We want intellectual answers.

Quote:
Posts like yours show that you really don't understand what we are going through, luckily for you, and that's what kind of posts she was trying to avoid by having a private forum, which I personally am not for.

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even though you really don't belong on this thread, especially since you're taking things personally.


My suggestion - just give it up. I'm sorry you got insulted, but no one is interested in arguing about this.
It is a fact that everything you're posting is exactly why the OP (not me) wanted a private forum.
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amother


 

Post Wed, Dec 15 2010, 3:34 pm
(cont) Just want to add, you REALLY REALLY don't understand, trust me on that one. Your post is just not on the mark, but not worth my time to argue every point.
I don't blame you because I would not have understood either in the past.
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amother


 

Post Wed, Dec 15 2010, 4:10 pm
op here- I assume you are BSD as well and I apologize that I insulted you.

we are not on the same wavelength at all and I am done argueing with you.
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